Carl von Susch GR

[knockout]

Hello,

I have some question about the familynames Planta, Carl and Mohr.
My great grandmother was Ursola (Ursolina) Carl. She was born in Susch in 1886, to Jon Planta Carl and Elisabeth Mohr. In 1903 she married to Jachen Barblan.

What i don't understand is why did Ursola's father have two familynames, Planta and Carl, and why did Ursola have just one family name ''Carl'' ?

Greetings,
Sandro

[Wolf]

Hello Sandro,

we only discuss single families in any given topic. I have chosen to rename the topic to "Carl von Susch" as Usulina Carl is the only person in your text with a date (born 1886).

As for the question about two surnames: it would be interesting to know the source of your information - an original Swiss record or a transcription into a databse by someone. Reason for my question: in different countries different naming conventions exist, and I have seen many cases in online-databases, where a foreign convention was used, which was not valid for Switzerland.

If Ursulina Carl was her name at birth (and she was legitimate) her father's surname would usually be Carl as well. A possible explanation could be that Planta was the father's "middle name": Planta as given name is not very common, but seems to have been used occasionally.

[knockout]

I have copies from baptism records of all Ursula's children.
And in those copies the grandfather is mentioned the same, Jon Planta Carl.
I guess I would have to search for the birthrecord of Jon Planta Carl, but where should I look for it.

Should I begin to look at the archive in Chur?

[Wolf]

I have copies from baptism records of all Ursula's children.
And in those copies the grandfather is mentioned the same, Jon Planta Carl.

Which increases the likelyhood that Planta in this case was a second given name.

I guess I would have to search for the birthrecord of Jon Planta Carl, but where should I look for it.
Should I begin to look at the archive in Chur?

... or the record of his marriage.
Carl have been citizens of Susch since before 1800 - so Susch church records may be the best starting point.
"Bürgerregister" were started in Graubünden in 1860. In St.Gallen all people alive then (in this case 1834) were included in these registers - don't know about Graubünden: if that applies there as well, Bürgerregister might also be helpful.
Where did you get the baptism records of Ursula's children? This will likely be the best place to look for other Susch records as well.

If you are lucky, Carmen will be able to help you .

Best regards - Wolf

[Carmen]

Halo Wolf und Knockout

Da die Heirat nach 1875 ist habe ich diese Familie nicht, aber ich habe auf unterem Link die Chroniken der Familie Carl, Mohr und Planta, sowie die Geburtseinträge von Jon Planta Carl 1859 und Elisabeth Mohr 1862.

Den Link lasse ich eine Woche stehen, nachher lösche ich diesen Link. Du kannst die Dateien in dieser Zeit kopieren
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/klnc5k1itjgf ... aNoga?dl=0 [funktioniert nicht mehr]

Viele Grüsse Fredi

[Wolf]

Vielen Dank für die Photos, Fredi !

Ich habe mir erlaubt, den Taufeintrag "herauszuschneiden" - siehe Anhang. Demnach war die Mutter also eine geborene Planta - und ihr Mädchenname wurde tatsächlich als Vorname für einen den beiden Zwillinge herangezogen.

Susch-GR-Taufe-18590717_1837-049.jpg

Fredi schreibt mir dazu

Dann wäre noch eine interessante Anmerkung zum Namen, Johann Planta Carl. Der Name Planta im Vornamen heisst, dass die Linie Planta der Mutter ausgestorben ist. Man erhält so den Namen Planta in der Familie.

Auf der rechten Buchseite sind dann die Grosseltern angegeben:
Joh. Madleine Carl und Magdalena g(eborene) Graß
Johann Planta, Landammann, und Ursula Rhea g(eborene) Planta

Susch-GR-Taufe-18590717_1837-050.jpg

Der am 17.07.1859 geborene Joh. Planta Carl wäre (gemässe dritter Spalte) aber im Sept. 1859 bereits gestorben - kann also nicht der oben gesuchte Vater sein. Gibt es noch einen später geborenen gleichnamigen Bruder?

[Wolf]

Vielen Dank für die zusätzlichen Photos, Fredi - hier also der Taufeintrag des "jüngeren" Johann (Jon) Planta Carl, geboren 24.02.1861, des Vaters der Ursulina Carl:

Susch-GR-Taufe-18600224_1837-053.jpg

Susch-GR-Taufe-18600224_1837-054.jpg

Eltern:
Conradin Carl und Ursula (geborene) Planta
Grosseltern:
Johann Madleina Carl und Madleine (geborene) Graß
Johann (Jon) Planta, Landammann, und Ursula Rhea (geborene) Planta

[Wolf]

Ursulina Carl's father, Johann (Jon) Planta Carl was born 24 Feb 1861 and baptised in Susch GR.
parents:
Conradin Carl and Ursula (nee) Planta
grand-parents:
Johann Madleina Carl and Madleine (nee) Graß
Johann (Jon) Planta, Landammann [high-ranking official], and Ursula Rhea (nee) Planta

The use of Planta as given name indicates, that the Planta line of the mother became extinct (no male desendants) - so to carry on the surname, it was used as given name.

Johann (Jon) Planta Carl had an older brother (a twin) with the same name, born and died in 1859.

[Carmen]

Hallo Wolf

Jetzt hast du falsch gelesen, Johann Planta Carl ist 1861 geboren nicht 1860.

Gruss Fredi

[knockout]

Thank you very much for the help, though it is no exactly clear to me.
This is how I understand it.

Johann Madleina Carl & Madleina Grass are the parents of Conradin Carl?

Johann Planta & Ursula Rhea are the parents of Ursula Planta

And then Conradin Carl & Ursula Planta (this Ursula Planta was the one where the family name Planta got extinct?) are the parents of Johann Planta Carl

And then Johann Planta Carl and Elizabeth Mohr are the parents of my great grandmother Ursula Carl?

But why did Johann Madleina Carl have a female middle name (Madleina)?

And are the given names Madleina and Planta given forenames or given familynames?

[Wolf]

Hallo Wolf
Jetzt hast du falsch gelesen, Johann Planta Carl ist 1861 geboren nicht 1860.

Gelesen habe ich schon richtig ... aber beim Zusammenschieben von Überschrift und Taufeintrag den dazwischen liegenden Jahreswechsel übersehen (dabei hatte ich mich sogar noch gewundert über den kurzen Abstand zwischen den beiden Geburten) .
Danke für die Korrektur (ist auch im Beitrag korrigiert) - Wolf

[Wolf]

Thank you very much for the help, though it is no exactly clear to me. This is how I understand it:
Johann Madleina Carl & Madleina Grass are the parents of Conradin Carl?

Correct.

Johann Planta & Ursula Rhea are the parents of Ursula Planta

... Ursula the mother ... correct.

And then Conradin Carl & Ursula Planta are the parents of Johann Planta Carl?

... Ursula the daughter ... correct.

... (this Ursula Planta was the one where the family name Planta got extinct?) ...

Not the name got extinct (it still exists!), but there were no males in this line, carrying on the name. What we don't know is the definition of the line: e.g. descendants of the grandfather, or the great-great-great-grandfather, or ...

And then Johann Planta Carl and Elizabeth Mohr are the parents of my great grandmother Ursula Carl?

That was the information provided by you. As far as Mohr is concerned - please remember that a new topic should be started on her family for detailed discussions.

But why did Johann Madleina Carl have a female middle name (Madleina)?

Two aspects:
1) In Switzerland some names are used for boys, which are clearly (for me, being German) girls' names - like Andrea.
2) It is not common to use given names "for the wrong sex" as one of several given names, but happens ... a well known example being Rainer Maria Rilke.
Which is the correct explanation here, I don't know.

And are the given names Madleina and Planta given forenames or given familynames?

Madleina is not a Swiss surname.
[See next contribution for a correction.]

[Wolf]

Hallo Wolf
Die Geschlechtsnamen im Vornamen stammen alle von ausgestorbenen Linien eines Geschlechtes. Der Name Madlaina oder Madlain ist im Engadin weit verbreitet. ...
Gruss Fredi

Siehe Familiennamen als Vornamen im Kanton Graubünden für andere Beispiele von Familiennamen, die auch als Vornamen verwendet wurden.

---------------
Fredi explains that also Madlain/Madlaina is an old surname - became extinct a long time ago, and is consequently not mentioned in Familiennamenbuch.
If you want to follow the Madlaina topic, go to the linked topic and "subscribe" to it.