Huber von Oberkulm AG

[JosephSmith]

I am working on a research project about the Swiss origins of U.S. President Herbert Hoover. His family name was originally Huber and they were from Kulm in Canton Aargau.

The Aargau Cantonal Archives graciously sent a record to me from the parish register of the Reformed Church in Kulm about the Huber family. It was found in a section of Baptisms of the sons and daughters of citizens who were Baptised away from Kulm. The relevant passage is in the last column on the right-hand side of the page. I need some help in reading parts of the record.

AG-Kulm-Tauf-1660-1691-auswärts-b.jpg

There are three pieces of information I am trying to extract:

1) The mother's first name is Elizabetha. However, I cannot read her last name. I believe it might be Zerber or something similar, but I am not certain.

2) I cannot read the name of the town where Elizabetha is from. It follows her last name in the record.

3) Where were Hans, Gregorius, and Michael actually Baptised? There is a reference to a town and a territory in the record. Again, I cannot read it.

Thank you!

[Wolf]

I have converted your pdf to jpg: this displays as thumbnail and gives readers an immediate impression what to expect.

Let me give it a first try:

Item Hans Heinerich
Huber von Ober-Kulm
und Elisabetha Gerber (see the G for Gregorius below)
von Bätterkinden (BE: Gerber being a long established family there) sind
………… ……………… Gemried(?)
getaufft worden zu
Hochenfelden in Kuchinsperg.
……………….
Anno 1666 den 23. Martij: Hans
Anno 1668 den 5. Julij: Gregorius
Anna 1672 den 3. Junij: Michael

Unfortunately I am not sure about the place of baptism - and cannot locate it.

[Wolf]

In the meantime I tried to find information on the ancestry of Herbert Hoover online: https://famouskin.com/family-group.php? ... r&ahnum=64 is an example (with data being copied many times, as usual with online databases). There is a minor difference in the DoB (05 vs 06 Jul 1668) - but a completely different mother (Maria Margaretta Hoffman).

I am sure you are aware of these publications: do you have ever seen any evidence for this information?

[Walter]

Eine kleine Ergänzung:

Item Hans Heinerich
Huber von Ober-Kulm
und Elisabetha Gerber (see the G for Gregorius below)
von Bätterkinden (BE: Gerber being a long established family there) sind
aussert unserer Gemeind(e)
getaufft worden zu
Hochenfelden in Kuchinsperg.

[Peter.D]

Ich lese den nachträglichen Eintrag des Pfarrers von Kulm gleich wie Wolf und Walter. Allerdings bin ich mir beim dritten Buchstaben in Hochenfelden nicht ganz sicher: ist da nicht eine Oberlänge über dem c?

Wie auch immer. Gemäss Homepage von Oberkulm ist die Familie 1665 zunächst in die Pfalz ausgewandert. Aufgrund des prominenten Nachfahren gibt es - wie Wolf schon festgestellt hat - natürlich unzählige genealogische Seiten zu dieser Familie. Die meisten weisen aber offensichtliche Fehler auf. So sind die Kinder von Hans Heinrich Huber nach 1665 sicher nicht mehr in Kulm geboren und getauft worden. Man hat offensichtlich immer wieder bei anderen abgeschrieben. Immerhin ist die Niederlassung in Ellerstadt (Huberhof !) und Oggersheim in der Pfalz mindestens zeitweise gesichert. Ich sehe dort aber weder ein Hochenfelden noch ein Kuchinsperg oder etwas ähnliches. Vermutlich hat Hans Heinrich Huber die Taufscheine der Kinder dem Pfarrer vorgewiesen, als er später z.B. wegen einer Erbschaft nach Kulm temporär oder definitiv zurückkehrte.

Joseph sollte jedenfalls die Kirchenbücher von Ellerstadt noch prüfen, die aber erst ab 1686 erhalten geblieben sind. Allerdings ist gemäss Ortschronik von Ellerstadt die früheste Geburt eines Huber dort erst 1699 verzeichnet. Vielleicht waren sie vorher in Oggersheim oder einer anderen Gemeinde in der Pfalz.

Peter

[Wolf]

... Allerdings bin ich mir beim dritten Buchstaben in Hochenfelden nicht ganz sicher: ist da nicht eine Oberlänge über dem c?

Darüber hatte ich auch ein Weilchen gegrübelt:

AG-Kulm-Tauf-1660-1691-auswärts-H.jpg

Der blau markierte Bereich gehört zum H. Beim rot markierten Bereich habe ich "für mich entschieden", dass das von der Rückseite durchscheint, da mir kein Buchstabe einfiel, was das "c mit Oberlänge" sein könnte.

[JosephSmith]

I am very grateful for everyone's kindness and assistance in trying to understand this record and the various movements of the Huber family from town to town. It seems that at least part of the story has become a bit confused over the centuries!

I cannot account for how Maria Margaretha Hoffman came to be associated as the mother of Gregorius. Perhaps, Elisabetha died and Hans Heinrich remarried to Maria Margaretha? It is ironic that I unwittingly disproved Maria Maragetha as the mother of Gregorius!

The records in the Ellerstadt parish register are helpful, but they begin a bit too late to help us with this particular matter we are trying to resolve.

I was doing additional research about the origins of Hans Heinrich and Elisabetha and saw a reference to their marriage. Allegedly, they were married at Mittelhausen in Alsace (now the Department of Bas-Rhin) on 22 August 1665. Indeed, they were! The record is attached. Also, here is a link to the record: https://archives.bas-rhin.fr/detail-doc ... 39-1099205 I believe Hans Heinrich is referred to as a weaver from Kulm. Elisabetha's Swiss origins are mentioned, too, I believe her father's name is Hans? However, I am having some difficulty fully understanding the record.

Interestingly, there is a small town named Hochfelden, which is about seven miles northwest of Mittelhausen. Hochfelden does not have a Protestant church. The Protestants of Hochfelden worshipped at Schwindratzheim, which is about five miles northwest of Mittelhausen. I checked the Mittelhausen and Schwindratzheim parish registers looking for the original Baptism records of Hans, Gregorius, and Michael, but I did not find anything in either parish register.

Thank you!

[griffy]

My attempt :

eod[em]. die [22. August 1665]

Hohenatzenheim

Hanß Heinrich Huber d[er]. Weber u[nd]. Wittiber, von Culm auß dem Schweitzer-
land, und Elisabetha ... Clauß Webers, des Küffers, zu Grey-
lingen auch im Schweitzerland bürtig Eheliche Tochter.

Hohenatzenheim is probably Hohatzenheim nowadays.
Greylingen : maybe Grellingen BL.
Küfer = cooper.

[Walter]

und Elisabetha ... Clauß Webers, des Küffers, zu Grey-
lingen auch im Schweitzerland bürtig Eheliche Tochter.

Ich lese dort: ... Clauß Gerbers ...

[griffy]

und Elisabetha ... Clauß Webers, des Küffers, zu Grey-
lingen auch im Schweitzerland bürtig Eheliche Tochter.

Ich lese dort: ... Clauß Gerbers ...

Ja, richtig!

On Geneanet, I noticed that there are collaborative indexes for Mittelhausen. This is the above record:

Mittelhausen_Geneanet.png

Geneanet

Geneanet premium users get to see another version:

Mittelhausen_Geneanet_Premium.png

[Peter.D]

Hans Heinrich Huber war also bereits Witwer als er 1665 in Mittelhausen heiratete. Möglicherweise war also die oft aufgeführte Margaretha Hoffmann seine erste, früh verstorbene Frau. Die entsprechende Heirat wäre wohl in Kulm zu finden. Hofmann sind jedenfalls altverbürgert in Unterkulm. Elisabeth Gerber stammte dagegen aus dem Dorf Kräiligen in der Kirchgemeinde Bätterkinden. Gut möglich, dass bereits ihre Eltern nach dem 30-jährigen Krieg ins Elsass ausgewandert sind.

Hochfelden hatte eine eigene protestantische Kirchgemeinde, eine Filiale von Schwindratzheim. Es gibt sogar Literatur zu dieser Kirchgemeinde, die aber leider nicht online verfügbar ist; falls sie tatsächlich evangelisch und nicht lutherisch war, würde das gut zu den evangelischen Einwanderern aus der Schweiz passen. Ich gehe davon aus, dass dem Pfarrer in Kulm Taufscheine von protestantisch Hochfelden vorlagen. Ob es separate Kirchenbücher für die Filiale gab?

Die französischen Angaben in der Wikipedia zu Mittelhausen lösen schliesslich auch das Rätsel um Kuchinsperg : die geografische Gegend hiess und heisst immer noch Kochersberg.


Peter

[griffy]

Es gibt sogar Literatur zu dieser Kirchgemeinde, die aber leider nicht online verfügbar ist;

Das Heft über Hochfelden ist auf Gallica verfügbar : https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k ... Hochfelden

[Peter.D]

Hallo griffy, kommst du auf diesen Server? Ich erhalte schon seit langem immer die Meldung
We can’t connect to the server at gallica.bnf.fr.

Ich habe bisher nicht herausgefunden wieso. Eventuell ein Sicherheits-Setting?

Peter

[griffy]

Ja, ich habe kein Problem mit dem Zugriff auf gallica.bnf.fr.

gallica.png

Ich konnte die ganze Zeitschrift als PDF herunterladen (mit OCR: 160MB für 103 Seiten).

[Peter.D]

Gut zu wissen, griffy. Ich hatte schon den Verdacht, dass die Gallica aus urheberrechtlichen Gründen ein Geoblocking macht. Aber nachdem du und auch Wolf zugreifen können, scheint es eher an meinem Provider oder an meinen Settings zu liegen. Ich wollte schon wiederholt bei Gallica Dokumente einsehen, da ich aber immer andere Zugänge gefunden habe, hat es mich bisher nicht wirklich gestört. Jetzt werde ich es aber mit meinem Provider aufnehmen.

Peter

[Peter.D]

Das Heft über Hochfelden ist auf Gallica verfügbar : https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k ... Hochfelden

Aus dem Artikel von W. Guggenbühl über die evangelische Gemeinde von Hochfelden (PDF-Seiten 57ff) wird klar, dass die wenigen Protestanten in Hochfelden nach der Widerrufung des Edikts von Nantes 1685 entweder konvertieren oder auswandern mussten. Es kann daher vermutet werden, dass die Familie von Hans Heinrich Huber-Gerber zu dieser Zeit in die reformierte Pfalz weitergezogen ist - was auch mit den dort bekannten Daten harmoniert. Offen bleibt leider, wo sich die Taufeinträge der Kinder von 1666 bis 1672 befinden, die gemäss Eintrag des Pfarrers in Kulm in Hochfelden getauft worden sind. Vielleicht hatte der Pfarrer der zuständigen protestantischen Gemeinde in Schwindratzheim für die Filiale Hochfelden eigene Bücher geführt, die heute nicht mehr auffindbar sind. Bemerkenswerterweise beginnen die erhalten gebliebenen katholischen Kirchenbücher von Hochfelden erst 1679.

Peter

[Wolf]

Thank you, Peter, for these interesting and helpful details. I find it a bit ironic that if the Baptisms of Hans, Gregorius, and Michael had not been reported back to Kulm and recorded in the parish register there it is very likely that would be no record of their Baptisms at all!

Working with the Batterkinden parish registers, .....

Further discussions on Gerber of Bätterkinden, please, in their own topic.

[Peter.D]

Hello Joseph,

At that time, there was hardly any reporting back from foreign parishes to the Swiss homeland, even between different Swiss cantons. This is why the father Hans Heinrich Huber presented the baptism certificates from Hochfelden to the pastor on his temporary or final return to Kulm. I strongly suspect that the three boys were really baptized in Hochfelden, but that the baptism registers can no longer be found. Unfortunately, the losses in Alsace in particular are comparatively great due to the repeated wars and religious conflicts over several centuries.

If he really did permanently return to Kulm, perhaps his second wife also died there.

Peter

[griffy]

Hi Joseph

I don't know if you've checked out this page on familysearch : https://www.familysearch.org/tree/perso ... s/LRGK-CX7

Names and locations seem to be all over the place, but the individuals mentioned appear to somehow correspond to the Huber family you're looking for.

It's important to take familysearch trees with a massive pinch of salt. But who knows, maybe there's something behind the frequent reference to Lenzburg?

There's also a Verena Huber who is said to have lived in Wülflingen ZH.

[hhg]

Thank you, Peter, for these interesting and helpful details. I find it a bit ironic that if the Baptisms of Hans, Gregorius, and Michael [Huber] had not been reported back to Kulm and recorded in the parish register there it is very likely that there would be no record of their Baptisms at all! …

one possible reason could be the family's affiliation to anabaptism. IF there are any hints to point into that direction: Langnau parish had compiled a Täufer-Rodel based on family events that descendents reported after decades, in order to ensure their Heimatrecht. Without any better lead, one could check whether such special records might exsist for the parishes connected to the Huber-Gerber-family in focus.

--------------------
urspr. unter Gerber von Bätterkinden BE publiziert.

[JosephSmith]

Hello Joseph,

At that time, there was hardly any reporting back from foreign parishes to the Swiss homeland, even between different Swiss cantons. This is why the father Hans Heinrich Huber presented the baptism certificates from Hochfelden to the pastor on his temporary or final return to Kulm. I strongly suspect that the three boys were really baptized in Hochfelden, but that the baptism registers can no longer be found. Unfortunately, the losses in Alsace in particular are comparatively great due to the repeated wars and religious conflicts over several centuries.

If he really did permanently return to Kulm, perhaps his second wife also died there.

Peter

I am grateful to you, Peter, for these extra details and suggestions. It is all very helpful!

I agree with you; the three boys were probably Baptised in Hochfelden, but the relevant parish register has since been lost. My Huguenot ancestors were from Alsace and several Swiss ancestral families lived in Alsace before going to America. Unfortunately, I am well familiar with the terrible state of some of the area's parish registers.

[JosephSmith]

Hi Joseph

I don't know if you've checked out this page on familysearch : https://www.familysearch.org/tree/perso ... s/LRGK-CX7

Names and locations seem to be all over the place, but the individuals mentioned appear to somehow correspond to the Huber family you're looking for.

It's important to take familysearch trees with a massive pinch of salt. But who knows, maybe there's something behind the frequent reference to Lenzburg?

There's also a Verena Huber who is said to have lived in Wülflingen ZH.

I did check this reference! Actually, it is what got me started on this journey. I wanted to see if any of the information was correct and if it could be proven with the parish registers still in existence. I started with Gregorius and I quickly went into the proverbial weeds as the name of his mother mentioned on the tree posted on FamilySearch did not match the name of the mother in his Baptism record. The Kulm marriage records do not begin until 1666 and the Baptism records between 1603 and 1657 are missing altogether.

The Lenzburg parish registers are in the care of the Lenzburg Municipal Archives. They are not in the Canton Aargau Archives, as I recently learned. Of course, this being Canton Aargau, nothing in Lenzburg can be consulted remotely! I am going to send them a note asking for a "one off" check of the records, with a particular eye towards the purported marriage of Hans Heinrich Huber to Maria Margaretha Hoffman in January of 1663 at Lenzburg, which is mentioned on the FamilySearch. If they were married, it was a brief marriage because, as we now know, Hans Heinrich Huber married Elisabeth Gerber at Mittelhausen in Alsace on 22 August 1665. Very frustratingly, there is a gap in the Lenzburg death records between 1636 and 1688!

[Walter]

I don't know if you've checked out this page on familysearch : https://www.familysearch.org/tree/perso ... s/LRGK-CX7

Es gibt eine weitere Seite zu Johann Heinrich Huber bei Familysearch, und hier wird auch Elisabeth Gerber als Ehefrau erwähnt.
Leider sind die Angaben aber auch hier sehr ungenau.

[JosephSmith]

I don't know if you've checked out this page on familysearch : https://www.familysearch.org/tree/perso ... s/LRGK-CX7

Es gibt eine weitere Seite zu Johann Heinrich Huber bei Familysearch, und hier wird auch Elisabeth Gerber als Ehefrau erwähnt.
Leider sind die Angaben aber auch hier sehr ungenau.

Thank you, Walter! I appreciate your assistance. I did see this reference. Like you, undoubtedly, I do wish people would not add material to the family tree on FamilySearch without first consulting the primary sources!