Frick von Niederbüren SG

[Markus]

Um 1680 wird in den Niederbürer Pfarrbüchern ein Joseph Fryckh vom Kehlhof als hospes benannt. Seine Kinder werden als filius hospitis genannt.
Fraglich ist für mich der Bergriff hospes. Einerseits könnte es sich um einen Fremden handeln. Andererseits wird hospes auch für Gastgeber, evtl. Gastwirt verwendet.
Was ist wohl eher zutreffend?

[Aspis]

http://www.albertmartin.de/latein/?q=hospes&con=0

Gruss Theo

[MIG]

Hallo Markus und Theo

der Begriff taucht auch um 1750 in den Wittenbacher Kirchenbüchern auf, dort geht es um einen Johann Ulrich Scheer.
Aber was der Begriff in diesem Zusammenhang bedeutet, weiss ich auch noch nicht.

[Walter]

Original von Markus
Fraglich ist für mich der Bergriff hospes. Einerseits könnte es sich um einen Fremden handeln. Andererseits wird hospes auch für Gastgeber, evtl. Gastwirt verwendet.
Was ist wohl eher zutreffend?

Gastwirt würde ich eher ausschliessen, da gäbe es treffendere Begriffe.
Eher würde ich annehmen, dass es hier um einen Ortsfremden, einen Zugezogenen geht. Seit wann sind Frick Bürger von Niederbüren?

Gruss, Walter

[Markus]

Der Vater von Joseph Fryckh, ebenfalls Joseph wird bei seinem Tod im Jahre 1685 als Wirth in Niederbüren und des Gerichts akdant bezeichnet. Bei der Taufe einiger kinder lese ich ebenfalls hospes. Vielleicht doch im Zusammenhang mit Gastwirt?

Die Frick sind in Niederbüren altverbürgert.

[MIG]

Der Wirt als Berufsbezeichnung (in allen möglichen Berufsformen) könnte passen.

Mein Scheer wohnt an der "Alten Konstanzer Strasse" ( Kloster St.Gallen - Bischofssitz Konstanz) und noch heute hat es Zeugnisse in, von, alter Gasthäuser, in denen ich als Zugezogener noch gerne einkehre.

[Markus]

Hier die Antwort des Stiftsarchivars St.Gallen.

Zitat: "Den Begriff "Hospes" könnte man in Ihrem Zusammenhang vielleicht sehr frei als "Pächter" umschreiben. Joseph Frickh sass ja auf einem Gut, dass nicht ihm gehörte, sondern dem Kloster St.Gallen. Er war also sozusagen ein "Fremder" der auf dem Kehlhof in Niederbüren jedoch ein "Gastrecht" genoss."

[Wolf]

Parallel zu diesem Thema lief auch eine Diskussion Lesehilfe Frick Niederbüren. Um Verwirrung zu vermeiden, wurden die Themen nicht zusammengeführt, sondern nur gegenseitig verlinkt.

[AlvyfromNL]

Urspr. unter Bitschnau in Bludenz publiziert.
======================================

Hello Wolf (and other responders)

Thank you so much for all this information! I didn't reply anymore because I expected contact in mail, not anymore here. But I decided to check once more anyway since I had some new clues. This info helps me already a lot in my search and explains a few things too. The interesting thing is the wife, she has a last name Frick. I am in contact with a family from France, named Fritz and resided in Algeria, but who claims their true name is supposed to be Frick. And their aunt, Rosalba Frick, from Suisse, left them a heritage and that is how they found out that the name shouldn't be Fritz, but Frick. Because it seems the bank contacted them with this information. And they are intending to change their name from Fritz to Frick in the coming months. This family Frick/Fritz is probably where we need to look for our DNA connection. Bitschnau gave the lead.

Then there is another family, also named Fritz and who also resided in Algeria who we share the DNA with, claiming the ancestors we look for are also from Suisse, from Gossau, Sankt Gallen. The information that I have of them is they are called Joseph Fritz, born in 1898 and Aicha Menaoui (married in Algeria). The parents of Joseph were called Jacob Fritz and Rachel ... (no last name known) supposedly they were living near the Bodensee. Could this all be of the same family, Fritz/Frick/Frik? All names lead back to Gossau/Sankt Gallen.

Question then is, who are the parents of the wife of Eduard Bitschnau, whose last name is Frick. And what her possible relation is to all the families I just named and who we share the DNA with. I think we coming close to solving the mystery. Was Edouards wife related to Jacob Fritz/Frick perhaps..

[AlvyfromNL]

And also, that explains why the DNA shows clearly we look for family that is coming from Gossau, St Gallen. Then it is not the Bitschnau branch itself that explains this, but the wifes side. That's the trail I need to investigate further.

[Markus]

Maria Martina Frick wurde am 25. Mai 1893 in Schoretshueb, Gossau geboren.
Eltern: Josef August Frick und Maria Karolina Zwicker, Bürgerort Niederbüren (ZVA 12.287 - Gossau (katholisch): Taufbuch, Seite 35)
Interessant: Als Pate wird Arnold Frick in Algier genannt!

[Wolf]

Für die Schweizer Unterforen haben wir eine Regel zur Struktur: immer nur ein Geschlecht (definiert durch Name und Bürgerort) je Thema detailliert diskutieren. Die Themen können (z.B. bei Verbindungen durch Heirat) verlinkt werden. Die letzten 3 Beiträge habe ich deswegen verschoben.

Hinweis zur Benachrichtigung per Mail: Autoren werden automatisch benachrichtigt zu neuen Beiträgen in Themen, zu denen sie beigetragen haben. Wer benachrichtigt werden möchte, obwohl selbst noch kein eigener Beitrag geschrieben wurde, kann ein Thema "abonnieren".

[AlvyfromNL]

Hello Wolf,

Yes I completely understand! It is good to keep the seperation of the threads and family names.

Information that I have from this family Fritz/Frick states the following that they are searching for, and they indeed mention an Arnold too. Translated from French.

Message 1: I am looking for information about my grandfather Frick Michel born May 14, 1905 in Jemmapes in Algeria who was the son of Frick Arnold and the sister of Rosalba about whom I have no information except that they were from Swiss nationality they had emigrated in the 1830s with the Compagnie Genevoise.

Message 2: for Fritz de Jemmapes On 7/05/1868 stillborn of **** M to Fritz Arnold farmer 44 years old and Rosa Wendling 35 years old. Fritz Auguste born on 03/26/1902 son of Jacques farmer, 38 years old, and Kentouch Khedidja Bent Mohamed, 23 years old. Frik Michel born on 05/14/1905

Message 3: I am looking for information on my family called Fritz Frick, one of whom married a certain Aïcha and a book was published. I do not know the author or the title. (but the Aicha I already found out by now).

Message 4: Hello dear compatriots, please send me the following documents, only you are able to help me to have the filiation of my grandfather Frick Michel born on May 14 in Jemmapes in 1905 died on March 10, 1962 in Algiers he was the son of Frick Arnold and the brother of my Great Aunt Frick Rosalba All were of Swiss nationality.

To me it is clear that the two families Fritz, both that lived in Algeria, are related to each other, but the puzzle is how. And ofc that this Pate Arnold Frick in Algier is named, is a very important clue. Next to that, both families say their ancestos originate in Gossau (or near this city).

[Markus]

Hier die Familienzusammenstellung Frick-Zeller

Der Sohn Jakob stirbt am 25.August 1929 in Algerien - Vielleicht auch eine Spur.

frick-zeller.jpg

[Wolf]

Hallo Markus,

in Deiner Graphik ist für Joseph Anton Frick (*1832) "Oberbüren" angegeben - wäre das der Bürgerort oder der Wohnort? Lassen sich die Frick von Oberbüren und Niederbüren (beides laut FNBS alte Bürgerorte für Frick) überhaupt sauber trennen?

[AlvyfromNL]

Hello Markus and Wolf,

Thank you so much for the diagram, Markus. That shows the connection between Maria Martine and Jakob, her uncle. Now I still can't find out who was Arnold in all this. He was her godfather in Algeria. Is it to be determined where in the family he could be based on being a godfather? Like what would be logical? Also, I tried to find more about Jakob in the archives of Gossau, but I guess it is too recent to find. Or was Jakob the same person as Arnold? But that wuld seem odd...
The book of 1900 on about Gossau is not available unfortunately. Also in the archives of Algeria there is nothing to be found about either Arnold or Jakob. It would be interesting to find out if there are any passenger books or something, who shows more about migration from Suisse to Algeria. Not sure if such information is available online though.

And another thing I noticed: Maria Rosa Zeller died in 1868. Is it possible Joseph Anton went to Algeria with his son to build a new life? I'm 100% certain that our greatgreatgrandmother, born in 1877 in Algeria, of unknown father, is where the Frick/Fritz line starts for our family and that a member of the Fritz/Frick family, born around 1835, is her father. From all the information I have until now, that is what makes sense. And it is the only ancestral father we miss on that side.. Just sharing my thoughts. Thanks again for all the help you gave Markus and Wolf!

[Markus]

Hallo Markus,
in Deiner Graphik ist für Joseph Anton Frick (*1832) "Oberbüren" angegeben - wäre das der Bürgerort oder der Wohnort? Lassen sich die Frick von Oberbüren und Niederbüren (beides laut FNBS alte Bürgerorte für Frick) überhaupt sauber trennen?

Joseph Anton wurde am 14. September 1832 in Oberbüren Buech geboren. Beim Taufeintrag wurde vermerkt, dass 1871 ein Taufschein ausgestellt wurde.
Die Frick von Oberbüren und Niederbüren lassen sich sauber trennen!

[wkla]

I have also not (yet) been successful in making a connection from Arnold Frick to Switzerland. The Etat Civil of Philippeville (Skikda, Algeria) shows that Arnold was 41 years old at birth of Michel, which means he must have been born around 1864. (Source Geneanet)

2023-12-13 05_41_54-Jemmapes (Skikda, Algerien) - Personenstand (Geburten) _ 1905 - 1905 - Geneanet .jpg

I assume that Arnold was in the French Foreign Legion? Many joined because they had a problem in Switzerland. It was not uncommon to change names or dates of birth, as I had to experience myself.

[AlvyfromNL]

@ wkla: yes this document I have too. I calculated he is born in 1864, which doesn't correspond with Jakob, being born in 1862. And I have another document of which I couldn't yet make a connection with either. Possibly Jacques is equal to Jakob? But then still it doesn't make much sense.. Maybe Arnold and Jacques were brothers?

Auguste Fritz geb 1902.jpg

The grandson of Michel Fritz/Frick told me the father of his grandfather Michel, born in 1905, is called Arnold. Like the document you posted shows.. His father, so the son of Michel, is called Said. And Said has a sister called Louise (born 1-11-1931 in Jemmapes). Louise is connected the other family Fritz, who told me the roots of their family lay in Gossau. The grandson of Michel Fritz/Frick that you posted the birth certicate of now carries the name Fritz, but they will have it changed by the high court to Frick within the next months, he said.

The other family Fritz exist out of 6 brothers, all born between 1928 and 1941 in Jemmapes, Algeria. They are Haoues, Hassen, Abbas, Sissain, Naouri and another brother of which I don't know the name. They are nephews of the Louise mentioned above.. The father of the 6 brothers is named Joseph Fritz, born 1898, married to Aicha Menaoui. The father of Joseph Fritz is named Jacob Fritz, who was supposedly married to a certain Rachel. But no further details on them.. This could be the Jakob that Markus showed in his schedule above... According to this family Joseph had a brother Michel, which makes sense, that would be the Michel of the document, but what doesn't make sense then, is that Michel here has a father called Arnold, and not Jacob. So if Joseph and Michel indeed were brothers, like the son of one of the 6 brothers says, why are the names of their father different. Which again makes me wonder, were Arnold and Jakob/Jacob one and the same person?

And the birth registration of Maria Martina also mentions an Arnold too. While Jakob is her uncle.. So where does the connection still miss?

[AlvyfromNL]

I also been seraching the archives for more data. I came across some marriage documents. Could anyone help reading them? I can't make too much of the handwriting unfortunately. The names of the parents I would like to know in particular.

1860 trouwen Jacob Anton Frick x Maria Elisabeth Bauer.jpg

1860 trouwen Jacob Anton Frick x Maria Elisabeth Bauer.jpg

1860 trouwen Joseph Anton Frick x Maria Rosa Zeller deel 2.jpg

[wkla]

This is the part I was able to read... (in German)
regards Walter

Frick-Niederbüren-1860.jpg

[AlvyfromNL]

What i can see from the archives then is that there were at least two brothers from the couple Josef Anton Frick & Maria Anna Högger.

Child 1: Joseph Anton Frick, born 14-9-1832, married to Maria Rosa Zeller on 4 july 1860. Posted in the schedule of Markus
Child 2: Jacob/Jakob Anton Frick, born 31-1-1834 (I think not 1831), married to Maria Elisabetha Bauer on 30 april 1860.

Child 1 is the father of Johann August Frick, born 4-9-1861 and Jakob, born 28-9-1862, that died in Algeria.

The second son, Jacob Anton, had several children too:
1. Jacob Anton b. 25-5-1865 (x M.A. Bernhardsgrütter (b. 24-8-1875) x 24-4-1900 St Gallen)
2. Joseph Emil b. 31-12-1866
3. Maria Theresia Agnes b. 27-7-1868 – d. 18-1-1869
4. Maria Catharina Agnes b. 18-11-1869
5. Maria Mathilde b. 11-1-1871

But still no Arnold in sight. Neither anything about the statement Arnold has a sister Rosalba.

[AlvyfromNL]

I wonder if more information can be found in this document of Staatsarchiv St Gallen

Titel Auswanderung nach Algerien
Signatur KA R.100-1-2
Stufe Dossier
Entstehungszeitraum 1831-1868
Archivalienart Dokument
Ausprägung analog

[Markus]

Ich habe mal beim Staatsarchiv SG nachgefragt ob es dort brauchbare Qaullen zu diesen Nachforschungen gibt.

[AlvyfromNL]

Was there anything in the contents of it that can point us into the right direction you think?

[AlvyfromNL]

I contacted the state archives if there was anything known of emigration of Jakob or his father to Algeria between 1868 and 1877:

They replied with the following:

Unfortunately, I could not find any references to the members of the Frick family you mentioned in the state archives' documents relevant to the emigration. I included the following documents resp. records in my search:

KA R.100-1-2 Emigration to Algeria (Auswanderung nach Algerien - Digitaler Lesesaal (sg.ch))
KA R.100-3-3 Emigration Individual (Individuelles - Digitaler Lesesaal (sg.ch)), arranged alphabetically, letter “F” (for Frick)
KA R.100-3-1-1 Registers of emigrants (Verzeichnisse der Auswanderer - Digitaler Lesesaal (sg.ch)) -> unfortunately only records for the years 1842-1860 are kept.

Incidentally, a few days ago I received an inquiry from a local genealogist with the same name or relating to the same people. I suspect that you are in contact with this person. I will send an identical response to this person.
I'm sorry I couldn't be of any further help to you.

[AlvyfromNL]

Can anyone decipher what city/country is named here? This is from the birth registration of Karl Gebhard in 1892.

1892 Peetvader Arnold Frick.jpg

[Wolf]

I read
Arnold Frick / in Comton. Amerika
Adelina Zwicker / in Bruggen [likely what today is St.Gallen-Bruggen]

Allow me a general comment: just small snippets are often difficult to decipher (fortunately this is a very readable handwriting) - and I consider helping unsatisfactory if I don't know the circumstances. Please, always describe the source, give the link (if online) or (if not online) upload the entire page.

[AlvyfromNL]

Thank you for helping out Wolf. I already thought it was that, but I was not sure. It's from the birth registration of the younger brother of Maria Martina Frick, Karl Gebhard Frick, born in 1892 in Gossau. Mentioned in Taufbuch (katholisch), Gossau, years 1890-1899, page 25.

https://dls.staatsarchiv.sg.ch/records/ ... %3D1506330

Arnold Frick is standing there as godfather. What is curious is that in the birth registration of Maria Martina Frick, his sister born in 1893, it states Arnold Frick from Algeria. Did this Arnold then first go to America and a year later to Algeria?

[Wolf]

https://dls.staatsarchiv.sg.ch/records/ ... %3D1506330
Arnold Frick is standing there as godfather. What is curious is that in the birth registration of Maria Martina Frick, his sister born in 1893, it states Arnold Frick from Algeria. Did this Arnold then first go to America and a year later to Algeria?

That would be page 35.
Actually it states Algier, the capital city.
If we assume these entries to be correct, Arnold has moved to America first, then Algeria. It only states where he was living at the time of baptisms - if he possibly moved back and forth, and where he actually settled in the end, is still open - although that he settled in Algeria may be the more likely assumption.