Januth in Malix GR

[cdeb78]

Hello,

Hope it's ok if I write in english here.
I would like to show you two official documents I have about my swiss ancestor, Johannes Januth (Janutt, Schanutt), *19.06.1799, who came to Belgium in 18XX.
These are acts he needed for his wedding.

Malix-Tauf-1799-0619-Januth-Johannes-k.jpg

Malix-Tod-1840-0422-Januth-Valentin-k.jpg

Could you please tell me what information are given, because I cannot move forward on his tree (what says the written words below?).

I added the scans on the FamilySearch page of Johannes Januth (G785-7RZ) in case you want a better(?) quality.

[Carmen]

Hallo cdeb

Die Angaben die du machst sind etwas dürftig.
Mit der Geburtenanzeige und der Todesanzeige stimmt etwas nicht überein. Am 19. Juni 1799 ist im KB Malix eingetragen Johannes Genut des Valtin Genut und der Lisabet Winzeller. 1840 soll ein Valentin Januth 77 jährig gestorben sein die Eltern Johannes Janut und Elisabeth Winzeler. Es sieht so aus dass im Totenschein der Vater nicht stimmt. Januth sind eigentlich reformiert und von Flims. Aber in Flims findet sich kein Eintrag. Weder von der Geburt des Johannes 1799 noch ein Todesfall 1840. Auch in Malix gibt es keinen Eintrag. In deinem Dokument ist bei der Todesangabe die Konfession katholisch.

Gruss Fredi

[cdeb78]

thanks for your reply, Carmen
indeed, I thought something was strange, as far as I understood, Valentin married a woman called Elisabeth Winzelin, but it is also the name of his mother??
I asked for someone to search the death act of Valentin but nothing was found on the microfilm I asked for research (Flims)...
the more I dig, the less I understand

[Wolf]

Der Name scheint ja in verschiedenen Schreibweisen in den Quellen vorzukommen. Laut Rätischem Namenbuch findet sich ein kath. Hans Baptist Tschanot 1749 in Trimmis; 1767 ein Johann Baptist Tschanutt von Campodolcino (Sondrio, Italien - wäre wohl auch kath.) in Klosters; und 1790 ein kath. Othmar Tschnutt in Zizers. Wären das evtl. mögliche Alternativen zu den reformierten Januth von Flims?

[Carmen]

Hallo Wolf

Im RNB suchte ich nach der Frau und dort fand ich wieder einen Eintrag in Malix bei den Geburten 1797. Die Namen sind zwar ganz anders aber es handelt sich um die gleiche Familie. Die Frau kommt aus Bad Ragaz und der Mann aus St. Maria, weiter bin ich nicht sicher ob dies Triesen heisst. Welches St. Maria es ist weiss ich nicht.

Gruss Fredi

[cdeb78]

Der Name scheint ja in verschiedenen Schreibweisen in den Quellen vorzukommen. Laut Rätischem Namenbuch findet sich ein kath. Hans Baptist Tschanot 1749 in Trimmis; 1767 ein Johann Baptist Tschanutt von Campodolcino (Sondrio, Italien - wäre wohl auch kath.) in Klosters; und 1790 ein kath. Othmar Tschnutt in Zizers. Wären das evtl. mögliche Alternativen zu den reformierten Januth von Flims?

I had find baptism information about someone called Othmar in 25/3/1790 too but didn't know the city, it's an interesting adding to my quest.
I also found Elisabeth Schonhaut in 14/6/1797, and Sibilla Schanuth in 7/10/1805.

You mention "reformed", is it something that can influence our research because records aren't not kept at the same place?

[cdeb78]

Hallo Wolf

Im RNB suchte ich nach der Frau und dort fand ich wieder einen Eintrag in Malix bei den Geburten 1797. Die Namen sind zwar ganz anders aber es handelt sich um die gleiche Familie. Die Frau kommt aus Bad Ragaz und der Mann aus St. Maria, weiter bin ich nicht sicher ob dies Triesen heisst. Welches St. Maria es ist weiss ich nicht.

Gruss Fredi

I'm amazed how you can read that old writing and find out interesting facts.
I see Bad Ragaz is a town not so for away from Malix, Zizers and Graubunden in general so it would explain why I never find something about Winzeller (or approximate variations of spelling), I thought she was from Graubunden too.
You see "St Maria" and "Triesen" for the origin of the Valentin, could they be other towns or parishes names?

[Wolf]

You mention "reformed", is it something that can influence our research because records aren't not kept at the same place?

Reformed and catholic are different denominations - and these parishes had their own church records. Only occasionally you'll find a person of the "other" denomination in wedding entries. Often there was only one of the two denominations/parishes in a given community. Flims was reformed only - to find catholic families in Flims would therefore be the exception - if there was one, they would usually attend church in another community with a catholic parish.

[Wolf]

Die Frau kommt aus Bad Ragaz und der Mann aus St. Maria, weiter bin ich nicht sicher ob dies Triesen heisst. Welches St. Maria es ist weiss ich nicht.

Bei Triesen bin ich sehr unsicher (das S sehe ich nicht wie in z.B. Elisabeth) - auf der anderen Seite wird im Namensidex des Familienbuchs Triesen Weinzierl genannt ... eine Verbindung zur Ehefrau?? Für (Bad) Ragaz finde ich im Familiennamenbuch jedenfalls keinen "passenden" Eintrag. Ich fürchte, da sind noch viele Fragen zu beantworten.

[Carmen]

Hallo cdeb

Jetzt hast du wieder Informationen angegeben aber ohne Quelle. Wenn du dies irgendwo im Internet gefunden hast, macht es keinen Sinn dir weiterzuhelfen.

Fredi

[cdeb78]

Hallo Cedeb

Jetzt hast du wieder Informationen angegeben aber ohne Quelle. Wenn du dies irgendwo im Internet gefunden hast, macht es keinen Sinn dir weiterzuhelfen.

Fredi

I'm not sure what you mean by giving the source. I had these document suggested as related by FS but cannot see the real document, just the indexed information extracted from it: example "Schweiz, Katholische und Reformiert Kirchenbücher, 1418-1996", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FZT-LTXC : 11 May 2022), Othmar Tschanatt, 1790.
they don't even mention the city.

[Wolf]

I had these document suggested as related by FS but cannot see the real document, just the indexed information extracted from it: example "Schweiz, Katholische und Reformiert Kirchenbücher, 1418-1996", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FZT-LTXC : 11 May 2022), Othmar Tschanatt, 1790. They don't even mention the city.

Well - that's the problem with "indexed" data on familysearch . They are excerpts, often with errors and/or missing vital information (like the parish) - and not giving a meaningful source:

"Schweiz, Katholische und Reformiert Kirchenbücher, 1418-1996"

So - it's from an either catholic or reformed church record (these are the only two denominations in Switzerland with church records at the time of interest!) from a the parish anywhere in Switzerland and a time span of 580 years. They could as well just not give any "source" at all! So this information needs to be verified - the link to the church record page is given (if I understand this correctly) - but unfortunately the page cannot be viewed from home (which I know is NOT the fault of familysearch!) - so one has to go to one of their History Centres to view the page: I don't know how convenient this is for you (cdeb78), but would appreciate if you could copy it and post it here for us to see. This would be a prerequisite to give Carmen (or someone else here) a chance to comment. Please, don't forget to check the parish (given name and year would fit Zizers).

[Debra Palmer]

Hallo Cedeb

Jetzt hast du wieder Informationen angegeben aber ohne Quelle. ...

Fredi

I'm not sure what you mean by giving the source. I had these document suggested as related by FS but cannot see the real document, just the indexed information extracted from it: example "Schweiz, Katholische und Reformiert Kirchenbücher, 1418-1996", database, FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6FZT-LTXC : 11 May 2022), Othmar Tschanatt, 1790.
they don't even mention the city.

... So this information needs to be verified - the link to the church record page is given (if I understand this correctly) - but unfortunately the page cannot be viewed from home (which I know is NOT the fault of familysearch!) - so one has to go to one of their History Centres to view the page: I don't know how convenient this is for you (cdeb78), but would appreciate if you could copy it and post it here for us to see. This would be a prerequisite to give Carmen (or someone else here) a chance to comment. Please, don't forget to check the parish (given name and year would fit Zizers).

Hello cdeb, Fredi and Wolf,

I have access to the records, so to help out I'll attach them and give the reference for each. Thank you, cdeb for providing the link to FamilySearch which has some attached indexes with a link to the church record pages - this is very helpful. I copied the names as they were indexed, so there are likely some spelling errors due to indexing.

Starting with the marriage record for Valentin Tschanut and Elisabeth Wüngerlin, year 1789, 4th entry.
Reference: Tauf - Toten - Ehebuch, Kath., Zizers (GR), years 1753 - 1838.

Debra

[Debra Palmer]

The baptismal record is for Othmar Tschanatt, year 1790, 4th entry.
Reference: Tauf - Toten - Ehebuch, Kath., Zizers (GR), years 1753 - 1838.

Debra

[Debra Palmer]

The baptismal record is for Elisabeth Schonaut, year 1797, entry 55.
Reference: Tauf - Ehe - Totenbuch, Malix (GR), years 1709 - 1807.

Debra

[Debra Palmer]

Another baptismal record, this one is for Johannes Genut, year 1799, entry 2 (this record was posted previously, however I attached it again just so the baptismal records are listed in order here).
Reference: Tauf - Ehe - Totenbuch, Malix (GR), years 1709 - 1807.

Debra

[Debra Palmer]

The baptismal record is for Sibilla Schanut, year 1805, entry 775.
Reference: Taufbuch, Kath., Churwalden (GR), years 1640 - 1837.

I'm willing to attach additional records.

Debra

[cdeb78]

wow, thank you so much for your research and time, Debra, I appreciate a lot.
If I understood well, Valentin Tschanut and Elisabeth Wünzerlin married in 1789 in Zizers: is it usual that wedding acts do not mention birth city or parents?

In 1790, birth of Othmar in Zizers (may we assume the child is christened in the city he was born?)
In 1797, birth of Elisabeth Schonaut in Malix
In 1799, birth of Johannes Genut in Malix
In 1805, birth of Sibilla Schanut in Churwalden (i read the word mause? after Valentin, does it mean something useful, like his job?)

I'm grateful for your help, I know I must search in Zizers rather than Flims, but, like Wolf said, Family search help us but don't say too much (don't know why being secretive about the town of people died more than 200 years ago).

[Wolf]

If I understood well, Valentin Tschanut and Elisabeth Wünzerlin married in 1789 in Zizers: is it usual that wedding acts do not mention birth city or parents?

Very much depends on the person writing the records - I am not aware of a general rule.

In 1790, birth of Othmar in Zizers (may we assume the child is christened in the city he was born?)

Usually the same parish (may encompass several communities) as long as the parish is the parents' denomination.

In 1805, birth of Sibilla Schanut in Churwalden (i read the word mause? after Valentin, does it mean something useful, like his job?)

Maurer = bricklayer (mason?): might be the reason why the family moved around a lot

… like Wolf said, Family search help us but don't say too much (don't know why being secretive about the town of people died more than 200 years ago).

We have two points here:
1) Why is the parish not mentioned in the index? I don't think they want to be "secretive" … additional info would have been additional work. Unfortunately speed seemed to be more important than accuracy .
2) Why can some records not be viewed from home? As I said, this is not the fault of familysearch, but the copyright holders (in most cases the State Archives). At the time of filming the agreement was that films would be available at FHCs only (which was FS's policy anyway). When the films had been digitized this limitation was continued - unless the copyright holders agreed to free viewing: e.g. Luzern did that - Graubünden did not .

[cdeb78]

In Belgium, the "rule" is to get married in the original city of the bride (not mandatory but like a tradition), is it the same in Switzerland?

[Peter.D]

In Belgium, the "rule" is to get married in the original city of the bride (not mandatory but like a tradition), is it the same in Switzerland?

Nein, überhaupt nicht. Eher am Heimatort des Ehemannes, aber keine feste Regel.

In Bad Ragaz erscheint tatsächlich eine Familie Wunzerli im Familienbuch (Bild 112) mit einer 1758 geborenen Tochter Maria Sybilla.

Die Taufe ist auch im Taufregister (Bild 172)von Bad Ragaz eingetragen, dort mit dem Familiennamen Wunzerlin.

Peter

[Wolf]

Die Angaben zu Wunzerli in Bad Ragaz SG wurden in ein separates Thema kopiert. Weitere Diskussionen zur Familie bitte dort.