Baumgart von Kirchdorf BE

[Wolf]

Im Zeitraum 1710 bis 1720 lassen Niclaus Trachsel von Jaberg und Barbara Baumgart (Bungart / Rungart) 5 Kinder in Kirchdorf taufen. Dabei verändert sich der Name der Mutter von Baumgart zu Bungart und weiter zu Rungart. Baumgart sind seit vor 1800 Bürger von Kirchdorf, Bungart und Rungart werden im Familiennamenbuch nicht genannt.

23.11.1710 Elsbeht [Baumgart] Paten: Benz Bähler, Stini Grönniman, Stini Krabs.

29.01.1713 Anna [Baumgart] Paten: Johannes Reüßer, Anna Bäller, Maria Trachsel.

06.04.1715 Barbara [Bungart] Paten: Abraham Bungart, Barbara Meÿer, Elsbeht Kirm

12.06.1718 Madlena [Bungart] Paten: Samuel Sänn, Barbara Streit, Madlena Murer

01.12.1720 Christina [Rungart] Paten: Christen Leehman, Elsbeht Probst, Christina Schwendiman

Baumgart-Bungart-Rungart.jpg

Die Taufpaten helfen leider nicht als Bestätigung, dass es sich hier um ein einziges Elternpaar handelt - trotzdem kann wohl angenommen werden, dass alle 5 Kinder die gleichen Eltern haben.

Erforscht jemand die Baumgart von Kirchdorf und kann sich zu den geänderten Schreibweisen äussern? Hat jemand die Namen Bungart oder Rungart schon einmal in anderem Zusammenhang gesehen? Tauchen die Namen Bungart oder Rungart auf der "Ehen-CD" auf (das Eherodel Kirchdorf beginnt 1713, also zu spät)?

[Walter]

... Tauchen die Namen Bungart oder Rungart auf der "Ehen-CD" auf (das Eherodel Kirchdorf beginnt 1713, also zu spät)?

Es gibt auf "meiner" Ehen-CD keine Ehemänner Bungart oder Rungart, nur einen Christian Bungert (von Laupersdorf), welcher am 19.01.1730 in Thurnen (= Mühlethurnen) eine Maria Kilchner (von Toffen) heiratete (Belp, Rodel 4, Seite 53).

Ich habe diesen Eheeintrag in Belp angesehen, dort steht von Kaufdorf, nicht von Laupersdorf!

Ehefrauen gibt es 2x Bungart, beide Ehen (1579 und 1616) in Belp, dazu 1x Bungert (mit einem ?) von Thurnen, Ehe am 26.04.1739 in Trachselwald eingetragen (Rodel 13, Seite 79).
Ehefrauen mit dem FN Rungart oder Rungert finde ich keine.

Nachtrag:
Kirchdorf ist auf "meiner" Ehen-CD noch nicht erfasst!

Noch ein Nachtrag:
Es gibt das Dorf Bangerten, Teil der Gemeinde Rapperswil BE, dessen Ortsname (laut Wikipedia) auf das mittelhochdeutsche Wort "Boumgarte" (Baumgarten) zurück geht

[Debra Palmer]

The attached baptism record is for the 6th child "Maria" of Niclaus Trachsel and Barbara Baumgart (Bungart / Rungart). The mother's name looks like "Baumgart" - please confirm that. Thanks, Debra

21.9.1727 Maria [Baumgart] Paten: Niklaus Zimmerman, Ma? Witt?, Stini Meÿer.

[griffy]

21.9.1727 Maria [Baumgart] Paten: Niklaus Zimmerman, Ma? Witt?, Stini Meÿer.

[Sonntag] den 21 ten 7bris
Maria

Par[entes].
   Niklaus Trachsel von Jaberg
   Barbara Baumgart
Testes.
   Niklaus Zimmerman v[on]. Gelterfingen
   Madleni Wittwer Hans Frey Ehefr[au].
   Stini Meyer des Ammanns tochter

[Debra Palmer]

griffy,

Thank you for confirming the mother's name (Baumgart) and finishing the transcription including the witnesses' names. That is helpful.

[Debra Palmer]

I would appreciate a bit of help with the translation of the witnesses in Maria Baumgart's baptism record.
Thank you!

2nd witness: Madleni Wittwer, wife of Hans Frey.
I think "Wittwer" could be translated in two ways: as the family name "Wittwer" (which is listed on the Familiennamenbuch website for canton Bern) and as "widower". In the context of the record, I think "Wittwer" as Madleni's maiden name makes sense rather then "widower"?

3rd witness: Stini Meyer, the Ammann's (official or bailiff) daughter.
I searched for the meaning of "Ammanns" and it could be an occupation or a family name. I think Ammann as the occupation of Stini's father makes sense rather than it meaning her father's first or last name since it seems "Meyer" is Stini's maiden name?

[Wolf]

Your interpretations are correct:

Madleni Wittwer Hans Frey Ehefr[au]: Madleni Wittwer (maiden name) is the wife of Hans Frey.

Stini Meyer des Ammanns tochter: des Ammanns = of the Ammann (position). If a surname I would also exepct a given name (compare with Hans Frey Ehefr[au]).

[Wolf]

Several of the (originally here) following contributions were likely of a more general interest - and were split off into Selected comments on topics with general interest. All readers are invited to continue these discussions there ... and to concentrate here on Baumgart of Kirchdorf.

[Debra Palmer]

The record is from Toten-Rodel, Staatsarchiv Bern, K Kirchdorf 8, page 51, year, 1751, 9th entry on the right, for "Baumgart".

The death record is "possibly" for Barbara Baumgart (Bungart / Rungart) wife of Niclaus Trachsel but unfortunately the priest did not list the given name. This is the only possible death record for Barbara that I have found so far, and I realize the record lacks enough information to confirm that it is the correct one. However, I am continuing to research Barbara to try and confirm this, which would than help confirm her maiden name. I would appreciate help and corrections to my transcription and translation. Thank you!

Question: In Thode, the word "Seitenstechen" (pain in the side) could be a spelling variation of "Seitenstics"? If yes, could this be the cause of death?

den 11th dito [Hornung] [1751] Storbe am Seitenstics? des Niclaus Trachsels von Jaberg, sel[ig], Witwe geborne? Baumgarts?: beÿ 60. jahr alt.

The 11th of February 1751 died during pain in the side?, nee Baumgart? widow of the late Niclaus Trachsel of Jaberg, age 60 years old.

[Wolf]

Transcription:

den 11.ten Dito (Hornung 1751) Starbe am Seitenstich des Niclaus Trachsels von Jaberg, sel(ig) Witwe, geborne Baumgart(in): beÿ 60. jahr alt.

The summary from Idiotikon tells us:

1. stabbing thing, weapon.
2. of 'stabbing' abdominal pains, especially on the side, in the back for example when running fast, rheumatisms, gout, in the older language (before 1800) especially of pleurisy.

The widow died "beÿ 60. jahr alt" = about 60 years old. As her given name is not mentioned the only way to confirm her connection is to exclude other possibilities (which you have already done to some extent). Also Niclaus Trachsel must have died prior to 1751.

Nicolaus Trachsel and Barbara Baumgart had children baptised between 1710 and 1720, and also 1727 - which would fit a mother born about 1691. Have you checked the baptismal register in this time frame - is there a Barbara?

[Walter]

Es gibt in Kirchdorf eine entsprechenden Taufeintrag:
Am 9. Februar 1690 wurde eine Barbara getauft, ihre Eltern waren Abraham Baumgart und Catri Gerig (siehe Anhang).
Mir ist nicht klar, weshalb die drei Kinder dieses Ehepaares gemeinsam eingetragen wurden.

Kilchdorf_1-20.jpg

[Renato]

Zur Todesursache: Mit „Seitenstechen“ ist sehr wahrscheinlich eine Blinddarmentzündung (Appendizitis) gemeint.

Gruss, Renato

[Wolf]

Mir ist nicht klar, weshalb die drei Kinder dieses Ehepaares gemeinsam eingetragen wurden.

So etwas kenne ich aus AR bei auswärtigen Taufen, auch bei mit Kindern zugezogenen Familien: dann wurden mehrere Kinder, oft nur mit Jahr, retrospektiv gemeinsam eingetragen. Es könnte also sein, dass die Familie nach 1690 nach Kirchdorf gezogen bzw. dorthin zurückgekommen ist. Geht aus dem Zusammenhang evtl. hervor, wann dieser Eintrag gemacht wurde?

Zur Todesursache: Mit „Seitenstechen“ ist sehr wahrscheinlich eine Blinddarmentzündung (Appendizitis) gemeint.

Erscheint ebenfalls plausibel - Danke für den Tipp.

[Walter]

Geht aus dem Zusammenhang evtl. hervor, wann dieser Eintrag gemacht wurde?

Inzwischen habe ich gesehen, dass dieser erste Taufrodel von Kirchdorf nach einem Brand des Pfrundhauses neu zusammengestellt wurde, "so gut es hat sein können", angefangen im August 1709 (oder ist das das Datum des Brandes?).

Kirchdorf_1-1.jpg

[Wolf]

Inzwischen habe ich gesehen, dass dieser erste Taufrodel von Kirchdorf nach einem Brand des Pfrundhauses neu zusammengestellt wurde, "so gut es hat sein können", angefangen im August 1709 (oder ist das das Datum des Brandes?).

Das könnte auch der Grund sein, warum es im Sterbeeintrag "beÿ 60. jahr alt" heisst - ein genaues Taufdatum konnte ja nicht mehr nachgeschaut werden.

[Debra Palmer]

Es gibt in Kirchdorf eine entsprechenden Taufeintrag:
Am 9. Februar 1690 wurde eine Barbara getauft, ihre Eltern waren Abraham Baumgart und Catri Gerig (siehe Anhang).
Mir ist nicht klar, weshalb die drei Kinder dieses Ehepaares gemeinsam eingetragen wurden.

Wolf asked (in a previous post) if there was a baptism record for Barbara Baumgart (Bungart / Rungart) born about 1691, to help confirm a possible death record for her. After seeing the "recompiled" baptism record for Barbara Baumgart (born in 1690) that Walter posted, it makes sense now why I could not find the church book for the baptism (because it had been damaged by fire as explained in the two previous posts).

Thank you very much to both of you: Wolf, for pointing out that finding the baptism record would be helpful and Walter, for finding the baptism record!! I really appreciate the help!! By the way: I think it's very fortunate that the baptism record even exists.

I realize that more research is needed to confirm if the 1751 death record and 1690 baptism record are the correct ones (which would help answer the question about Barbara's maiden name). Wolf had previously commented that it would be helpful to find the death record for Barbara's husband Niclaus Trachsel since the death record that I posted for Barbara Baumgart mentions she was a widow in 1751.

I searched the Kirchdorf parish death register starting in the year 1727 (the year it began) and went through to the year 1751 (when Barbara died) and several years beyond that. I found just one death record for a "Niclaus Trachsel".

The record is from Toten-Rodel, Staatsarchiv Bern, K Kirchdorf 8, page 24, 2nd entry for year 1740, for "Niclaus Trachsel".
I would appreciate help with corrections to my transcription and translation. Thank you!

Question: For the death date, the month wasn't mentioned so I assumed it was the same month from the previous entry?

Question: I searched on Idiotikon for the meaning of "Stich" and it said "stab". Thode says "krank = sick", so could Stich krank = stabbing pain sickness? The word "Seitenstich" was mentioned in Barbara Baumgart's death record, could "Stich krank" be similar in meaning to "Seitenstich"?

den 20 [Jan: 1740] Starbe zu Jaberg Niclaus Trachsel des oligen? Bruder?, ware beÿ 8 tagen an? dem Stich krank, Otat.? 62.

On January 20, 1740, died at Jaberg, Niclaus Trachsel, the ? brother, was 8 days ? sick, ? 62.

Thank you again for your help!

[griffy]

den 20 [Jan: 1740] Starbe zu Jaberg Niclaus Trachsel des obigen Bruder, ware beÿ 8 tagen an dem Stich krank, ætat. 62.

On January 20, 1740, died at Jaberg, Niclaus Trachsel, brother of the aforementioned, was 8 days sick, aged 62.

I can't really help with the "Stich" illness.

This is the transcript of the previous entry:

den 5. Jan. [1740] verstarbe zu Jaberg der alte Hans Trachsel, geweßner Chorrichter, ware wenige tag an Einer Engbrüstigkeit krank, ætatis ohngf[ahr] 65.

On Jan. 5, 1740, died at Jaberg the old Hans Trachsel, former consistorial judge, was sick with chest tightness for a few days, aged approximately 65.

[Debra Palmer]

griffy,

Thank you very much for correcting my transcription and translation. And translating the entry for Niclaus' older brother Hans (I hadn't figured out that connection between the two records, since my translation for Niclaus was only partly done). Now the names of these Trachsel brothers are known, which is helpful!

Question: What type of judge could a consistorial judge have been (referring to Hans Trachsel)?

[Wolf]

I can't really help with the "Stich" illness.

Das dürfte die "Kurzform" für Seitenstich sein.

[griffy]

Question: What type of judge could a consistorial judge have been (referring to Hans Trachsel)?

The Chorgericht was a sort of ecclesiastical court, and in particular a marital court, but it also covered a wider range of issues like morals and vice, or simple rooting out of entrenched Catholic practices.

The Chorgericht went by the name of "Consistoire" in the French speaking parts of Switzerland or "Ehegericht" in Zurich.

You can read more about the topic here.

[Cynics claim it was the rediscovery of the Inquisition by the Reformed churches...]

[Debra Palmer]

Das dürfte die "Kurzform" für Seitenstich sein.

Thank you Wolf for your comment about "Stich krank". It's interesting to know that Niclaus Trachsel and his wife Barbara Baumgart seem to have probably died from the same (or a similar) illness.

[Peter.D]

Quite possible. But it was not a side stitch as we know it from sports today. It was often the result of pulmonary tuberculosis, which was of course very contagious within the family.

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

The Chorgericht went by the name of "Consistoire" in the French speaking parts of Switzerland or "Ehegericht" in Zurich.
You can read more about the topic here.

griffy,

Thank you for answering my question about a "consistorial judge" and sending the link. I read some of the information about "The consistory" and it was interesting and helpful.

[Debra Palmer]

Quite possible. But it was not a side stitch as we know it from sports today. It was often the result of pulmonary tuberculosis, which was of course very contagious within the family.

I agree with you, that it is very possible that Niclaus Trachsel and his wife Barbara not only died of the same illness but the illness could very well have been contagious. And after reading your comment, "It [side stitch = Seitenstich / Stich krank] was often the result of pulmonary tuberculosis", I thought of the meaning of "Sīte(n)stich" found in Idiotikon (which was quoted in Wolf's previous post) and specifically the meaning of "Brustfellentzündung": 

Sīte(n)stich 
1. stechende Sache, Waffe.
2. von 'stechenden' Leibschmerzen, besonders auf der Seite, im Rücken zum Beispiel bei schnellem Laufen, Rheumatismen, Gicht, in der älter Sprich besonders von Brustfellentzündung.

Sīte(n)stich 
1. stabbing thing, weapon
2. of 'stabbing' abdominal pain, especially on the side, in the back, for example, when running fast, rheumatisms, gout, in the older language especially of pleurisy.

And I was curious to know how the symptom "Seitenstich" (stabbing pain on the side) was a symptom of both "pulmonary tuberculosis" [which you had mentioned] and Brustfellentzündung (pleurisy) found on Idiotikon. So I searched the internet for "pleurisy" and found this information on a page from Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleurisy

Under the heading "Signs and symptoms" it says, "The defining symptom of pleurisy is a sudden sharp, stabbing, ... pain in the right or left side of the chest during breathing ...".

And under the heading "Causes" it says, "... many other different conditions can cause pleuritic chest pain: Bacterial infections associated with ... tuberculosis".

So the information about "Pleurisy" in Wikipedia (if it's accurate of course) helped me to understand your comment, "side stitch ... was often the result of pulmonary tuberculosis" and it makes sense how pulmonary tuberculosis (as you suggested) could possibly have been the cause of death for Niclaus Trachsel and his wife Barbara Baumgart.

Thank you for your comment, it was very helpful!

[Debra Palmer]

The record is a copy (from FamilySearch) of the baptisms for Barbara Baumgart and her two siblings that Walter had found and previously posted. I would appreciate corrections to my transcription and translation: to especially know if the names of the witnesses are spelled correctly.
Thank you!

Abraham Baumgart von Kilchdorf u[nd] Catri Gerig haben nachfolgde? kind taufe last.?

1ng? infans: Hans Rudi. anno 1684.
Testes: Amman Meÿer, Hans Rudi Christen, Adelheit Lori

2dg? infans: Abraham den 16 Julÿ 1686.
Test[es]: Thommas Ochs, Bashi F?riden, Johanna Futer

3 infans: Barbara den 9 Febr[uary] 1690
Testes: Bändicht Trachsel, Barbara Wäber, Barbara Stäler

The children of Abraham Baumgart of Kirchdorf and Catri Gerig were baptized in Kirchdorf parish as follows:

1.? Hans Rudi in the year 1684
Witnesses: Amman Meÿer, Hans Rudi Christen, Adelheit Lori

2.? Abraham on July 16, 1686
Witnesses: Thommas Ochs, Bashi F?riden, Johanna Futer

3. Barbara on February 9, 1690
Witnesses: Bändicht Trachsel, Barbara Wäber, Barbara Stäler

[Walter]

Abraham Baumgart von Kilchdorf u[nd] Catri Gerig haben nachfolgende Kind[er] taufe[n] laß[en]

2dg? infans: Abraham den 16 Julÿ 1686.
Test[es]: Thommas Ochs, Baschi Friden (=Sebastian Frieden), Johanna Futer

[Wolf]

Just a comment on the numbers:
1mus = primus (first)
2dus = secundus (second)
What looks like a "g" is an often used abbreviation for "us".

[Debra Palmer]

Abraham Baumgart von Kilchdorf u[nd] Catri Gerig haben nachfolgende Kind[er] taufe[n] laß[en]

2dg? infans: Abraham den 16 Julÿ 1686.
Test[es]: Thommas Ochs, Baschi Friden (=Sebastian Frieden), Johanna Futer

Thank you for your corrections to my transcription, that is helpful!
I translated your correction, "Abraham Baumgart von Kilchdorf u[nd] Catri Gerig haben nachfolgende Kind[er] taufe[n] laß[en]" on DeepL and the result was "Abraham Baumgart of Kilchdorf and Catri Gerig have had the following children baptized", which I think sounds better than my translation.

[Debra Palmer]

Just a comment on the numbers:
1mus = primus (first)
2dus = secundus (second)
What looks like a "g" is an often used abbreviation for "us".

Thank you for explaining the meaning of the "numbers", which was confusing.

I have seen several Latin words in German records but not the Latin numbers written in this record.
Question: I assume that the abbreviation that looks like a "g", is a Latin abbreviation?

[Wolf]

Question: I assume that the abbreviation that looks like a "g", is a Latin abbreviation?

I am mostly familiar with this in Latin records. Reformed records are usually in German - but we also have "infans" and "testes" here.