GENEAL-FORUM

Larry

Zimmermann was well known as Anabaptist at that point. But I don't see the word after his name as Teuffer.

I agree that the initial letter looks like an “E” and I certainly didn't take the word as “Täufer” when I first saw it---but then I am not very good at deciphering the old handwriting and always have to get hhg to help me. But when I saw that Renato had suggested “Täufer” it made sense, and I remembered seeing other initial “Ts” written in that stylized fashion.

I notice that there is quite a large gap between the birth of the twins in 1687 and the baptism of Johannes at Schwarzenegg in 1695. I wonder whether there were additional children that Christian Zimmermann managed to prevent from being baptized? It is even possible that Christian was not present at the baptism of his son in 1695, and that it was done without his consent, or perhaps with his tacit consent. In the Sigriswil KB I have seen several examples of children of Anabaptist parents being presented for baptism by other relatives, I am guessing with the tacit consent of one or both parents. As the 1690s were a repressive time for Anabaptists in that area, perhaps Christian Z. was in hiding or had temporarily left the country?

The use of "Herr" and "Frau" for the two witnesses is unusual but I wouldn't (personally) take it as indicating high social status. Perhaps the witnesses were strangers to the parson and he was just being respectful? The Steffisburg KBs contain, as I am sure you know, many Wertmüllers.

Walter hat geschrieben: Di 27. Jun 2017, 09:13

larryzimmerman40 hat geschrieben: Di 27. Jun 2017, 06:11 ... Christen Zimmermann was well known as Anabaptist at that point. But I don't see the word after his name as Teuffer.

Der erste Buchstabe ist vermutlich schon ein etwas spezielles "T" (siehe Anhang).

Ich lese inzwischen auch "Teuffer" (= Täufer), mit 2x dem gleichen "e".


alte T.png

Danke Walter und alle, die Ideen beigetragen haben. Ja, der erste Buchstabe ist vermutlich ein spezielles "T", und das Wort kann Teuffer sein. Christen Zimmermann war Täufer. Es ist nicht klar, warum der Pfarrer Anab. in anderen Einträgen schrieb, wie Helmut darauf hinwies.

bstahly hat geschrieben: Di 27. Jun 2017, 14:31 Larry

Zimmermann was well known as Anabaptist at that point. But I don't see the word after his name as Teuffer.

I agree that the initial letter looks like an “E” and I certainly didn't take the word as “Täufer” when I first saw it---but then I am not very good at deciphering the old handwriting and always have to get hhg to help me. But when I saw that Renato had suggested “Täufer” it made sense, and I remembered seeing other initial “Ts” written in that stylized fashion.

Bruce

I am now persuaded that the word following Christen Zimmermann's name is Teuffer, as argued by Walter and others. That also was Helmut's first thought. The reason I suspect that Melchior and Dorothea Wertmüller may have been VIP is because I have found other Zimmermans of Steffisburg who were associated with some very important personages, members of the upper echelon of Bern, including the Schultheiss. Christen Zimmermann's mother was a Wertmüller from Steffisburg, so it seems reasonable to guess that Melchior and Dorothea were related, but how? Yes, it is quite possible that Christen Zimmermann and Barbara Bachmann had children in Switzerland in that gap from 1687 to 1695, kids who remained hidden. Additionally, they may have had children in Alsace after the Amish exodus. I believe that Christen Zimmermann of Denzlingen, my 5th g-grandfather, was likely born about 1705. But the births of Amish children generally were not recorded in Alsace during the period, so I may never be able to prove a link to Christen Zimmermann and Babi Bachmann, or any other specific Zimmermann family that joined the Amish gathered around Ste. Marie-aux-Mines.

larryzimmerman40 hat geschrieben: Mo 26. Jun 2017, 16:19 ... aber ich weiß nichts über Herr Melchior Werthmüller und Frau Dorothea Werthmüller, die Zeugen im Jahre 1695. Hat jemand mehr Informationen über sie?

Auf der Ehen-CD gibt es einen Melchior Werthmüller von Thun, welcher am 12.02.1682 in Thierachern eine Anna Völkli (auch von Thun) heiratete, vielleicht ist das der Gesuchte.

Leider gibt es auf der CD nur eine Dorothea Werthmüller, welche am 16.02.1590 in Steffisburg den Johannes Zimmermann heiratete, die ist aber 1695 sicher längst verstorben .

Nachtrag:

In den Aufzeichnungen von Thun findet man im Taufrodel 01 (1578-1728) (unter anderen) folgende Werthmüller-Kinder:
Seite 219 / 1653 > Melchior, Eltern Melchior W. & Verena Küng
Seite 251 / 1665 > Dorothe, gleiche Eltern wie oben

Die frühen Tauf- und Eherodel von Thun sind 1772 einem Brand zum Opfer gefallen, es gibt nur diese sehr groben Aufzeichnungen aus Taufscheinen und auswärtigen Kirchenbüchern.

Thank you, Walter!

More info about Christen Zimmermannn and Anna Gross, and Christen Zimmermann and Anna Wyss. The latter was Weibel in Steffisburg. He was married to Anna Wyss (i haven't found the marriage yet) and he had a brother Niclaus.

I found three baptizes for Zimmermann/Gross in Steffisburg: Hans(1634), Madle (1645) and Christen (1650)

At the same time another Christen Zimmermann ( der Weibel) and his wife Anna Wyss baptized children in 1641 (Anna) and 1643 (Niclaus).

On the site mentioned below you can find and download the Lohner Chronik. Band II mentions Weibel Christen Zimmermnn several times. I copied some parts (see below)
https://www.thun.ch/stadtverwaltung/abt ... ronik.html Band II 1551-1864
März (1641) Der Weibel Christen Zimmermann zu Steffisburg der in abgehaltener Gemeinds Versammlung
gegen dieses Mandat geredt und die Gemeinde von Befolgung desselben abgewendet, wurde
desswegen vom Rath zu Bern seiner Weibelsstelle entsezt, zu Ehr und Ämtern fürohin unfähig
erklärt und zu 24 stündiger Gefangenschaft verurtheilt.
Pfarrer Johann Jacob Güder in Steffisburg hatte den Weibel bei der Regierung desshalb angeklagt.

März 30 (1641) Um die Stimmung der Steffisburger zu erforschen und sie gegen obiges Mandat aufzureisen kamen nach Steffisburg, Niclaus Zimmermann des entsezten Weibels Bruder Hans Rügsegger Weibel zu
Röthenbach, Uli Galli im Eggiwyl und Müller Hansli ab dem Kurzenberg.
May 10. Schultheiss Bachmann zu Thun schreibt der Regierung er habe den rebellischen Niclaus
Zimmermann der an den Grenzen seines Amtes wohne nächtlicher Weise aufheben und gefangen
nach Thun führen lassen, dieses seie aber bald ruchtbar geworden, und aus den Kirch Gemeinden
Steffisburg, Diessbach, Röthenbach, Signau, Schangnau, Langnau, Höchstetten, Kiesen etc. seien
bei 500 a 600 bewaffnete Männer vor der Stadt Thun erschienen und hätten durch ihre
Ausgeschossenen Anton Zimmermann dem Weibel von Steffisburg des Gefangenen Bruder, Niclaus
Stalder, Ulrich Kupferschmid und Bendicht Stuki die Freilassung des Zimmermann verlangt, und
wenn die Freilassung nicht erfolge Gewalt zu gebrauchen gedroht. Damit jedoch nicht grössere
Ungelegenheit daraus erwachsen so wollen sie sechs Bürgen für denselben stellen, er habe aber in
ihr Begehren nicht eingewilligt, sondern sich entlich mit ihnen so weit verständigt an eure Gnaden
zu schreiben, unverzüglich Gesandte hieher zu senden um ihre Beschwerden anzuhören, zugleich
habe er ihnen versprochen das unterdessen der Gefangene nicht beleidigt noch weiter transportirt
werde.
Ihr Hauptmann David Michel kam auf erhaltene Kunde von diesem Vorfall sogleich von seinem
Schloss Ralligen nach Thun und dem Schultheissen und der Burgerschaft mit Rath und That
beizustehen.

May 11. Die Zahl der zur Befreiung Zimmermans herbeigeeilt und vor der Stadt versammelten Bauern betrug
schon gegen 1500, gebahrdeten sich ungestüm und drohten wiederholt wenn man ihnen denselben
nicht bald loslasse dass Schloss und die Stadt mit Gewalt einzunehmen und im Fall sich die
Burgerschaft gegen sie wehre die Stadt zu verbrennen und zu zerstöhren unter diesen Umständen
und um Blutvergiessen vermeiden trat der [oberste Zeile eingefügt, bei der Bindung abgeschnitten]
Schultheiss mit den Aufrührischen Landleuten in Unterhandlung und versprach ihnen dass
wenn in zwei Stunden, nämlich bis 4 Uhr Nachmittags kein Befehl oder keine Gesandten
von Bern da seien, er ihnen dann den Zimmermann gegen die angebottene Bürgschaft
heraus geben werde, worauf hin sie ihm die zwei Stunden Aufschub zugestanden.
Unterdessen fand Zimmermann Gelegenheit über die Lize hinunter aus dem Schloss zu
entrinnen.
Die Gesandten welche Räth und Burger zu Bern nach Thun abgeordnet um die
Beschwerden der aufgestandenen Landleuten einzuvernehmen war Herr Schultheiss
Dachselhofer, Landvogt Lombach, Landvogt Fischer des kleinen und Landvogt
Kirchberger, Vogt Imhoof und Hauptmann Georg Thormann des grossen Rahts, Sie
versammelten sich im Rathhause zu Thun, es erschienen Abgeordente von 18 Gemeinden
vor denselben.
24. May 1641
Herr Widmer Predt. zu Bleienbach eingestellt und Herr Langhans Predikant zu Melchnau 24
Stunden in Gefangenschaft gelegt weil sie sich dem Contributions Mandat wiedersezt ferner aus
gleicher Ursach wurden Bendicht Obrist Weibel zu Aarwangen und Christen Zimmermann Weibel
zu Steffisburg vor dem Rathaus zu Bern die Mäntel abgenommen, jeder 24 Stunden in
Gefangenschaft gesezt und ihrer Diensten entsezt.
25. Juni (1641) Auf demüthig und unterthänig Erscheinen des entsezten Weibels von Steffisburg Christen
Zimmermann haben Meine Herren ihn aus Gnaden wieder in seinen Dienst eingesezt.
Juni 3. (1653)
Die Ämter Thun, Oberhofen, Interlaken und Frutigen wurden auf heute entwaffnet.
Unter den geflüchteten Aufrührern befanden sich
Hans Burger, Statthalter von Steffisburg
Christen Zimmermann Wirth von Steffisburg
Johann Rüfenacht Schalmeister am Homberg
Hans Bühler von Sigriswyl.
Im März und April (1653) war Hauptmann Franz Wyss, Commandant im Schloss Thun.
Michel Zehner Kirchmeyer zu Amsoldingen wurde um 1000 Pfunde gebüsst weil er
den Weibel Daniel Indermühle nach Reutigen geschikt hatte um die Bauern bei
Leibesstrafe aufzumahnen nach Gümmenen zu ziehen.
Statthalter Berger von Steffisburg war Hauptmann der Bauern Armee und Mitglied
des Kriegsrathes.
Christen Zimmermann von Steffisburg war auch Mitglied des Kriegsrathes.

Thank you for reviving this forum thread, which has not been active for several years. It is good to be able to respond to a fresh post.

I have reviewed documents from the Stadt Thun archives in the past, but I had not come across the Lohner Chronik. Thank you for the link to those records.

I think Christen Zimmermann the Weibel at Steffisburg (and the Wirt) was married to Anna Gross. Christen had a brother Hans Zimmermann who married Anna Wyss. Johannes Jacob Güder, the minister at Steffisburg between 1637 and 1645, created some confusion because--I believe--he made mistakes in the Taufrodel (KB3). Here is a summary of what I have found.

The Aug 27, 1643 baptismal record for Niclaus Zimmermann names the father as Christen Zimmermann den Wÿbel and the mother as Anna Wÿss seinem Weib. But that is incorrect. Christen Zimmermann’s wife and the mother of Niclaus was Anna Gross. Pfarrer Güder, made a similar error in a KB entry on Sep. 22, 1641, listing the female Zeuge for a baby girl as Anna Wÿss, Weibel Zimmermanns Weib. But again, Christen Zimmermanns wife was Anna Gross.

Christen Zimmermann married Anna Gross at Wichtrach on Oct. 24, 1631. Anna was the daughter of Hans Gross and Elsi Gäumann. Christen Zimmermann became the Wirt at the Landhaus in Steffisburg soon after his marriage. He also became the Weibel about the same time. He lost the Weibelmantel in 1641 because of his outspoken opposition to the new tax mandate announced by the Bern Council. He remained as Wirt until 1653 and his involvement in the Bauernaufstand. Christen Zimmermann and Anna Gross had five children baptized at Steffisburg.
1. Hans, Dec. 7, 1634; the father Christen Zimmermann was identified as the new Wirt.
2. Anna, Nov. 21, 1641 (KB3, 33); I read the mother’s name as Anna Gross in that entry.
3. Niclaus, Aug 27, 1643. Here I think the minister made a mistake naming the mother as Wyss.
4. Madle, Aug. 3, 1645
5. Christen, Mar. 31, 1650

Christen Zimmermann (b. 1597) was the son of Anthoni Zimmermann and Anni Kapfer.

Christen's brother Hans (b. 1590) zu Reutschbrunnen in Homberg married Anna Wyss in 1646 [correction]. That was after the KB entries in 1641 and 1643 referring to Anna Wyss as the wife of Christen Zimmermann, so I am a little puzzled why Pfarrer Güder might have confused Anna Wyss with Anna Gross, but there is clear evidence, even more than I have presented in this short post, to convince me that Christen Zimmermann the Weibel and Wirt was married to Anna Gross. Anna Wyss married Hans Zimmermann and they had two children that I know of.

Another Zimmermann brother was Anthoni (b. 1600). The youngest brother was Niclaus (b. about 1605), a miller at Buchholterberg. There were other siblings as well, but it was Christen, Hans, Anthoni, and Niclaus who were deeply involved in the events of 1641 and 1653.

One more bit of evidence about Anna Gross: Attached is an image of a baptism record from Feb 1, 1640 (KB3 p.2). Anna Gross was Gotte for the infant Anna Blank and is identified as the wife of Weibel Zimmermann—that was a year before he had to give up his Weibel position.

Hi Larry,
First of all i want you to know that i have only one Zimmermann in my family tree (Verena Zimmermann, married to Christian Ruchti) so my information on the Zimmermann family does not include a Hans Zimmermann married to a Anna Wyss.

Zimmermann was en is a very common name in Switzerland. They are found all over the place. This does not necessarily mean they are all related.

My conclusion for the baptisms in Steffisburg for the years 1634 through 1650 was that there must have been TWO different Christian Zimmermanns in Steffisburg at the time, one married to Anna Gross and who was a Wirt and one who was married to Anna Wyss and he was a Weibel.
In my view the baptism on page 33 of Kb 3 of Steffisburg clearly reads Wyss, not Gross.
To sum up what i have: 1634, 1645, 1650 Anna Gross mother and 1641, 1643 Anna Wyss mother. Two women giving birth in the same period so there must be two Christian Zimmermanns in Steffisburg at that time. Maybe the Pfarrer was more confused about which one was the Wirt and which one was the Weibel than which was the right wife. But if the mothers weren't present at the baptism he could have been confused about the wifes names. It could go either way, i think.
It has been been claimed that my ancestor Verena Zimmermann was a daughter of one of these two women and was born in about 1630. I haven't found a baptism yet to confirm that claim. Maybe you could help me out there.

Verrat
Drei Wochen nach dem Gefecht von Herzogenbuchsee fallen Daniel Küpfer und Hans Rüegsegger in die Hände der Obrigkeit. Durch Verrat. Im Falle Küpfers ist Säckelmeister Krähenbühl von Wyttenbach der Judas, er erhält dafür einen Reichstaler aus der Staatskasse. - Dem Rüegsegger Hans erzählt der Pfarrers von Röthenbach: er solle sich auf Schloss Signau melden, die Menschenjagd sei vorüber, er könne sein Amt als Weibel wieder antreten. Weil die Geistlichkeit jeweils die Mandate der Oberkeit von der Kanzel verkündet und die Erlasse gut informiert ist, glaubt ihm Rüegsegger.
Ueli Galli flieht mit anderen gesuchten Rebellen auf Christen Zimmermanns Weide im Sörenberg. Er wird im September gefasst, als er sich noch einmal im Eggiwil blicken lässt. Seine Häscher sind geworbene Leute des Vogts von Trachselwald, allen voran jener Niklaus Dubach von Lützelflüh, der bereits den Leuenberger gefangen nahm.
Zimmermann wird im Abwesenheitsverfahren gehängt, dann 1656 begnadigt, bis seine Frau im Garten laut redet: man hätte der faulen, lügenhaften Obrigkeit niemals glauben und damals vor Bern angreifen sollen... Das Ehepaar Zimmermann muss erneut fliehen. Reisende berichten, sie hätten bei Stuttgart eine Mühle übernommen.

source: https://urs.fatamorgana.ch/stationen.html

In a list made by the genalogist Alfred Reichen you'll find under Wyss:
Wyss von Aeschlen bei Oberdiessbach 1592-1820 BE
von Aeschlen bei Oberdiessbach, 1592-1820 BE
von Habkern 1653-1880 BE
von Kappel SO 1580-1955, viele SO
von Koppigen 1612-1890 BE
von Ringgenberg BE 1676-1922 BE
von Rohrbach bei Huttwil 1614-1820 BE
von Wengi bei Büren 1606-1850 BE
von Wynigen 1559-1880 BE
Wyss/Weiss von Erlenbach im Simmental 1593-1920 BE

Maybe there is a marriage Zimmermann/Wyss to be found in any of these places

Thank you for the dialogue.

You are correct that there were two men named Christen Zimmermann living at Steffisburg, each married, and each having children during the same general time period (in fact there were at least three men of that name living there in the 1630s-1660s). First there was the Christen Zimmermann baptized Feb. 13, 1597, the son of Anthoni Zimmermann and Anni Kapfer. That Christen Zimmermann was a Reisläufer as a young man, presumably spending time away from Bern, perhaps in France? He married Anna Gross at Wichtrach in 1631. The baptism record for that couple’s first child, Hans, born in 1634, says that Christen Zimmermann was the new Wirt. He also served as Weibel from about the same time, maybe 1635, until he was removed by the Berner Rat in 1641. He was part of Leuenberger’s Kriegsräte in 1653, and he proposed a plan to block the Aare River, strangling Bern Stadt economically. Perhaps he drew on his experience as a Reisläufer in his military leadership in der Bauernkrieg von 1653.

Urs Hostettler included numerous details about Christen Zimmermann in his 1991 book, Der Rebell vom Eggiwil, and his reporting makes it certain that Christen Zimmermann was both the Wirt and the Weibel at Steffisburg. Hostettler wrote this about Christen Zimmermann’s part in voicing opposition to the new tax Bern imposed in 1641:

In verschiedenen Gemeinden reden die Weibel offen gegen die Täll, ganz wüst schimpft Weibel Zimmermann an einer Gemeindeversammlung in der Kirche von Steffisburg.

As a result of his speaking out:

Christen Zimmermann von Steffisburg hatte in Bern seinen Weibelmantel abgeben müssen, man hatte ihn mit der Rute gestraft, und seinem Bruder Niklaus sagte man: Wenn er nach Bern gehe, werde er gleich mit drei Ruten geschlagen werden. Die Steffisburger hatten von ihrem Predikanten Güder gar vernommen: Die Herren wollten drei Rädelsführer köpfen, damit sich der Rest des Volkes ergebe.

So, we know that Christen Zimmermann the Weibel was a brother of Niklaus—he was a miller at Buchholterberg, where he was captured in the middle of the night on May 10, 1641 and imprisoned at Thun. We also have this from Urs Hostettler:

Die Belagerer schicken eine Delegation in die Stadt. Angeführt wird sie vom Steffisburger Wirt Christen Zimmermann, dem Bruder des Gefangenen, einem furchtlosen Mann, der in jungen Jahren als Söldner weit herumgekommen ist.

There can be no doubt that Christen Zimmermann, the brother of Niklaus, was Wirt and Weibel at Steffisburg.

However, there was another Christen Zimmermann, and he too was a Wirt—so it gets complicated.

On May 6, 1642, a man also named Christen Zimmermann married Madlen Hilfiker at Steffisburg. That couple had 11 children between 1643 and 1669. When they had their first child, Hans, baptized on Mar. 19, 1643, the father Christen Zimmermann was identified as der Wirth. He served as an innkeeper at Steffisburg and at Guggisberg for many years after that. Three of his 11 children were born at Guggisberg. After Christen Zimmermann and Madlen Hilfiker returned to Steffisburg around 1660, Christen was sometimes referred to in the Steffisburg KB as “genannt der Guggisperg.”

I do not have a birth record to prove it 100%, but the evidence strongly supports a hypothesis that the younger Christen Zimmermann—who was probably born about 1617-1622—was the son of Christen Zimmermann (b. 1597), either in a marriage prior to the one with Anna Gross or out of wedlock. I have not been successful in finding a record of Christen Zimmermann’s first marriage (if he was, in fact, married earlier than the 1634 marriage at Wichtrach to Anna Gross) or a birth record for the younger Christen. If any readers of the Forum can help in that search, I would greatly appreciate it.

Attached is an image from a 1646 entry in KB3, p. 124. The male Zeugen were Christen Zimmerman alt Weibel and Christen Zimmerman d Wirt. Of course that does not prove these two individuals were father and son, but there is powerful evidence that they were. I present a more complete analysis of my reasons to accept that relationship in an article to be published in the next week or two, the October 2020 issue of Mennonite Family History.

Returning for a moment to the baptism of Anna Zimmerman, KB3, p. 33, I still see Gross as the mother’s name. I acknowledge that the G is sloppy—is schlampig the correct German for that? But when I look at the way the minister formed the W in Christen Walthart, one of the witnesses for Anna’s baptism, it appears not to match the first letter in the mother’s family name.

As for your ancestor Verena Zimmermann, wife of Christen Ruchti, I have information in my database. But this is already a lengthy post, so I will present that material in a different post later today or tomorrow.

Gruß aus California
Larry

Verena Zimmermann and Christen Ruchti married at Steffisburg on Dec. 12, 1651. Verena was the daughter of Hans Zimmerman in Schwendi (Homberg) and Agatha Hebysen. If Verena was age 18-23 at marriage, she may have been born 1628-1633, but there is no baptism record.

Hans Zimmermann and Agatha Hebysen (m. 1622) registered four children.
Anna (Feb. 14, 1630)—this was eight years after the marriage. Anna died young.
Peter (Oct. 25, 1635)—Peter was a close associate of Jacob Ammann, the Anabaptist preacher who instigated the Amish division among the Swiss Brethren Mennonites.
Anna (Oct. 3, 1941)
Madlen (Dec. 24, 1643)

Verena may have been born before 1630, or perhaps in the gap between the first Anna (1630) and Peter (1635). It might be reasonable to suspect more children were born but not baptized during more than 20 years of marriage, but perhaps not. There were just four children living in 1681.

The Steffisburg Chorgericht met in 1681 to consider a case involving Hans Zimmermann, resident of Schwendi. He had been called before the court on several occasions, as early as 1645, accused of licentious behavior. The hearing on Feb. 20, 1681 was convened to consider the matter of this same Hans Zimmermann—then age 78—and Barbara Witschi, a young widow to whom he had promised marriage. The marriage would result in the new wife and her children entering the household where Hans lived with his daughter Verena and her husband Christen Ruchti under a legal agreement (Schleiss) reached about eight years earlier, whereby Hans Zimmermann’s farm had been passed on to his four children in return for them providing a home for their father. Hans’ daughter and son-in-law were opposed to taking in the new wife and her children. They wanted to maintain the Schleiss for the remainder of Hans’ lifetime. This 1681 CM entry names two of Hans adult children, Verena and Peter, but it states that there were four children total. The names of the other two siblings are not given, but they probably were Anna (b. 1641) and Madlen (b. 1643). At the court hearing Hans lamented the promise he had made to Barbara Witschi, but, in spite of his second thoughts and the strenuous objection of his children, the marriage took place on Apr. 25. According to a later CM entry, Hans Zimmermann died sometime before Jun. 1686.

On 28.September I wrote that Christen Zimmermann’s brother Hans (b. 1590) zu Reutschbrunnen in Homberg married Anna Wyss in 1646. I was wrong on that. The woman that Hans Zimmermann married was named Jacobe Wyss. That may weaken my argument that the minister might have confused Anna Gross and Anna Wyss. I will search for more information regarding any Anna Wyss.

Hello Researchers,

The Zimmermann research is very interesting. Please consider plagues, which disrupted family lives. After a plague, there were many marriages, as new families were formed.

My research in the Stein am Rhein church records showed that many died in 1635: Sept., Oct., Nov., Dec., and in 1636: Jan., Feb.

A PBS television program on Galileo, 1564-1642, stated that 1635 was a plague year. About 600 died in Florence, Italy.

Best wishes, Walt

I am seeking help in reading the attached entry from Gurzelen K3, 207, a marriage on 20 Jun 1695 between Peter Zimmermann von Steffisburg (?) and Anna Hodler of Niedergurzelen. There appears to be a reference to Hans Jacob Freudenreich, who was the minister at Steffisburg in 1695. I would appreciate any assistance in deciphering this record.

Vielen Dank

Hi Larry,

I read ex permiss. von ?Prd? Freudenreich. For a "foreigner's" marriage performed at Gurzelen, Peter Zimmermann of Steffisburg needed the consent/permission of the priest/predicant of his Heimat parish

The first words look like haben miteinander Fyrsprach ghalten ... likely promised each other ...

Thank you, Helmut! Not certain who this Peter Zimmermann was, but he may have been the son of Hans in der Weid.

Larry

Ein Christen Zimmermann wurde am 4. September 1659 in Steffisburg getauft. Die Eltern waren Christen Zimmermann von [zu ?] Rötschibrunnen [Rütschibrunnen, Homberg bei Thun] und Margret Läderich von Wichtrach. Ich habe Schwierigkeiten mit der restlichen Sprache des Eintrags. Bitte, kann jemand mit einer Lesung helfen? Bild aus Steffisburg K4 31.

Hm, schwierig, ich versuch's mal. Ich lese:

Parentes:
Christen Zimmermann von Rötschibrunnen im alten Hus, itz nüw in Thuner Kilchhöri, darin Bentz Schnyder vor Jahren z'Hus gsyn, ... ... ..., uxor ... Margrit Läderach von Wichtrach. Diser Bentz Schnyder sol itz hier (Bsitz?) haben.
Testes:
Peter Schneider zu Wattenwyl, Hans Stauffer uff dem ..., Barbli Tschanz von Niderwichtrach

Andere User können gerne ergänzen oder korrigieren.

von einem Nicht-Lateiner:

Bentz Schnyder vor Jahren z'Hus gsyn, ... ... ..., uxor ejus [seine Ehefrau]

Davor ??? sic mihi hic recruit ??? [????? so er mir zugetragen hat ?????]

Danke Helmut und Bernhard

Pfr. Freudenbergers Einträge können schwierig zu lesen sein. Ich glaube, es ist Lentz Schnyder (wie du vorgeschlagen hast, Helmut), aber ich weiß nicht, wer er war. Kann jemand helfen, Lentz/Lorenz Schnyder zu identifizieren?

Beste Grüße aus California

larryzimmerman40 hat geschrieben: Fr 26. Mär 2021, 22:37 ... Kann jemand helfen, Lentz/Lorenz Schnyder zu identifizieren?

Auf der Ehen-CD gibt es keinen Lorenz Schnyder, aber 5 Lorenz Schneider (siehe Anhang), vielleicht hilft das weiter ...

Thanks Walter

Ich sehe die 08.09.1594 Hochzeit von Lorentz Schneider und Anna Farni in Steffisburg. Ich finde nicht, dass sie in der Zeit von 1595-1602 Kinder getauft haben. Lorentz Schneider war in dieser Zeit mehrere Male Zeuge.

Ich bitte um Hilfe bei der Handschriftenanalyse. Stimmen die beiden Unterschriften von Hans Zimmermann überein?

Ich glaube nein.

larryzimmerman40 hat geschrieben: Mo 12. Apr 2021, 17:01 ... Stimmen die beiden Unterschriften von Hans Zimmermann überein?

Ich bin zwar kein Graphologe, trotzdem finde ich die beiden Unterschriften haben einige übereinstimmende Merkmale.
Wie weit liegen sie zeitlich auseinander?

Grüezi larryzimmerman40,

denke nicht, dass die beiden Hände identisch sind.

Handelt es sich wirklich um Unterschriften und nicht um Schriften verschiedener Registerführer?

Bochtella

für mein Empfinden gibt es mehr Unterschiede als Übereinstimmungen: Der erste und letzte Buchstabe beim Vornamen, der spiegelbildlich Schwung in der Oberlänge beim Anfangs-Z des Nachnamens, der im ersten Beispiel gerade, im zweiten rechts-schwingende Schnörkel am Ende. Auch scheint die wesentlich dickere Schrift mehr auf höheren Andruck als nur auf ein anderes Schreib-Utensil hinzudeuten. Falls es doch derselbe Unterschreiber war würde ich vermuten, dass die beiden Versionen in deutlich unterschiedlichen Lebensjahren und -umständen geschrieben wurden - Graphologe bin ich aber auch keiner ...

Larry,

I am also no handwriting expert but my opinion is that the two signatures could well be from the same person. Personally, my own signature varies somewhat from time to time: the different versions are similar but not exactly identical. I have noticed that some individuals’ signatures seem to be nearly always identical, at least to my untrained eye. Doubtless an expert could detect differences, however.

Perhaps in this case the context is more revealing than the handwriting itself?

Best regards,

Bruce Stahly