Haas von Romoos LU

Moderator: Wolf

Antworten
entlebuch45
Supporter2023
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: Di 20. Jul 2021, 07:01
Geschlecht: Weiblich

Haas von Romoos LU

Beitrag von entlebuch45 » So 21. Jan 2024, 06:13

I would be most appreciative of any information forum members can provide regarding Hans Albert Haas, assumed born between 1850 and 1890. Possibly the brother of (or at least related to) Arthur Josef Haas, husband of Maria Hafliger (1856-1926). Hans Albert Haas is recorded as the father of illegitimate son Franz Josef Haas (1908-1986) born to Rosa Frieda Haas (Werthenstein, 1892-1974). Franz immigrated to Australia in 1922 with his aunt (Rosa Frieda's sister) Mathilde Stocker, nee Haas (formerly Steffen), her two sons Theodor Werner and Xaver Ernst Steffen and her second husband Anton Stocker.

------------
urspr. Titel: Haas im Kanton Luzern



Peter.D
Beiträge: 1955
Registriert: Sa 27. Feb 2010, 17:53
Geschlecht: Männlich
Wohnort: Schweiz, Zürich

Re: Haas im Kanton Luzern

Beitrag von Peter.D » So 21. Jan 2024, 18:45

1. Do you know where Franz Josef Haas was born and what his origin (Heimatort) was? Has he retained his Swiss citizenship?

2. Was Rosa Frieda Haas really only 16 years old (1908-1892) when Franz Josef was born?

3. Was Haas the maiden name of Rosa Frieda? Was she related to Hans Albert Haas?

4. Has Hans Albert Haas formally recognized his son Franz Josef, with name, citizenship (Bürgerrecht) and all other civil law consequences?

Peter



entlebuch45
Supporter2023
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: Di 20. Jul 2021, 07:01
Geschlecht: Weiblich

Re: Haas im Kanton Luzern

Beitrag von entlebuch45 » Mi 24. Jan 2024, 12:51

Hello Peter D.
Thanks so much for your interest.
1. Franz Josef Haas is recorded in our family Stammbaum (Steffen of Entlebuch) as having been born in Luzern, as were his legitimate sister Rosa Trudy (Apr1919) and brothers Fridolin (Mar1920) and Erwin (Mar1929) - I do not have his personal place of origin.
2. Rosa Frieda Haas was in fact not yet 16 when she bore Franz.
3. Yes Haas was Rosa Frieda's maiden name.
4. I have no knowledge of whether Hans Albert Haas ever acknowledged Franz. We only became aware of Hans'
identity recently through gaining access to Franz' application for Australian naturalisation/citizership in 1929 in which he records Hans as his father in the Statutory Declaration therein. The application is in the National Archives of Australia.
Paul



Peter.D
Beiträge: 1955
Registriert: Sa 27. Feb 2010, 17:53
Geschlecht: Männlich
Wohnort: Schweiz, Zürich

Re: Haas im Kanton Luzern

Beitrag von Peter.D » Mi 24. Jan 2024, 17:50

Hallo Paul

Vor 1912 galt noch das kantonale Zivilrecht von Luzern. Bei der hier vorliegenden, aussergewöhnlichen Situation muss es verschiedene erhaltene Dokumente geben, die aber alle nicht online sind:

1. Den Eintrag im Geburtsregister A der Stadt Luzern von 1908
2. Den gleichlautenden Eintrag im Geburtsregister B 1908 der noch nicht bekannten Heimatgemeinde des Kindes bzw. seiner Mutter
3. Ein zwingend erforderliches Urteil des zuständigen Amts- oder Bezirksgerichts über den zivilrechtlichen Stand des Kindes und - sofern bekannt - die rechtlichen oder finanziellen Verpflichtungen des Vaters. Zuständig war zunächst das Gericht am Wohnort oder Heimatort des Vaters, falls nicht im Kanton oder nicht bekannt am Heimatort der Mutter.
4. Akten zu der über das Kind und die Mutter errichteten Vormundschaft oder Beistandschaft, vermutlich am Heimatort der Mutter
5. Eventuell ein Strafurteil gegen den unehelichen Vater, je nach seiner Beziehung zur noch jugendlichen Mutter. Das Strafrecht war damals ebenfalls noch kantonal geregelt.

Für die meisten der oben aufgeführten Dokumente und Urteile ist es wichtig, den Heimatort von Mutter und Kind zu kennen. Wenn die Geburt 1908 tatsächlich in der Stadt Luzern erfolgt ist, solltest du daher beim Staatsarchiv Luzern eine Kopie aus dem Geburtsregister A verlangen. Wenn du weit entfernt wohnst, werden sie dir dies vermutlich als PDF zusenden und nicht Einsicht vor Ort im Archiv verlangen.

Je nach Ergebnis können wir dann bei Bedarf die obigen Punkte 3 bis 5 weiterverfolgen.

Peter



entlebuch45
Supporter2023
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: Di 20. Jul 2021, 07:01
Geschlecht: Weiblich

Re: Haas im Kanton Luzern

Beitrag von entlebuch45 » Di 30. Jan 2024, 07:49

Hello Peter,

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply.

I will now bring what we have discussed so far to the attention of my cousin in Ermensee with whom I have collaborated on family genealogy matters in the past. Perhaps she will be prepared to follow your suggestions regarding the requests through the Lucerne State Archives as she has dealt with them previously.

I have a well-established login at the Archives but my poor German language skills are often a barrier to navigating their website and making successful discoveries.
I live in Australia, and am disappointed to think this line of enquiry only became necessary so soon after we returned from holidaying with family in Lucerne in October last. So much could have been done personally at that time.

Since I last wrote, however, I have been able to determine with some certainty that Franz' place of origin was Neudorf, and at the time of his immigration he was domiciled in Sursee. Further, his mother Rosa Frieda was from Werthenstein.

I am most happy to continue our conversation on this matter and to pursue further answers with your assistance also.

Paul



Peter.D
Beiträge: 1955
Registriert: Sa 27. Feb 2010, 17:53
Geschlecht: Männlich
Wohnort: Schweiz, Zürich

Re: Haas im Kanton Luzern

Beitrag von Peter.D » Di 30. Jan 2024, 17:39

Hello Paul

If Franz and his unmarried mother really did have different places of origin (Heimatorte), Franz may have been recognized by his illegitimate father. As I understand it, however, this was only possible from 1912 onwards. The recognition would certainly have been subsequently entered in the birth record.
That's why it's important to request document no. 1 in my last answer. You can certainly submit your request in Lucerne in English. However, your cousin would probably have to go to the archives herself.

The passport register could also be interesting, although not online. At that time, children were usually included in the passport of their parents or accompanying adults, so you or your cousin would have to search the register under several names.

Peter



entlebuch45
Supporter2023
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: Di 20. Jul 2021, 07:01
Geschlecht: Weiblich

Re: Haas im Kanton Luzern

Beitrag von entlebuch45 » Fr 2. Feb 2024, 00:24

Hello Peter,

Following your suggestion I am happy to report that an email enquiry to the Archives met with immediate
success. Thank you.

According to the relevant entries in birth registers A and B, Franz was born/resident in Luzern
but his place of origin was Romoos as was his mother Rosa Frieda's (born/resident) of Werthenstein.
I probably should have picked her Heimatort as Romoos as it is that of her older sister (my grandmother),
but such consistency of Places of Origin is never certain I have discovered. Rosa Frieda subsequently
married Fridolin Josef Mehri (1891-1931) in Auw on 20th of April 1918. I now take it that the use of
Neudorf as place of origin in the immigration papers of each of the family members was simply a
convenient use of the place of origin of Mathilde's second husband Anton Stocker.

The archivist was unable to find any reference to, or identification of, the Franz' father; pointing out that
Haas is a very common name in Canton Lucerne and that perhaps consideration should be given to searching
for Johann Albert Haas as an alternative to Hans Albert. They are not, unfortunately, in a position
to conduct extensive family searches.

That said, he did add one item of interest that he came across regarding Rosa Frieda. On the 6th of February
1909, she and her father were convicted of theft by the Lucerne District Court (Bezirksgericht Luzern), and the proceedings were then transferred to the High Court (Obergericht)???

For your information and further consideration.

Paul



Peter.D
Beiträge: 1955
Registriert: Sa 27. Feb 2010, 17:53
Geschlecht: Männlich
Wohnort: Schweiz, Zürich

Re: Haas von Romoos LU

Beitrag von Peter.D » Fr 2. Feb 2024, 17:25

Hello Paul,

If the father is not named in Franz's birth record, then he was not recognized by him, neither immediately after birth nor later. From a civil law perspective, Franz therefore had no father. Is the alleged natural father Hans Albert Haas only evident from the information that Franz provided himself for naturalization in Australia? Sometimes a mere paying father (Zahlvater) was informally noted in pencil on the birth record - which is apparently not the case here either.

In any case, there should have been a judgment by the competent district court in 1907 regarding the illegitimate birth and the awarding of the child to the mother. The only question is which one. The place of jurisdiction depends primarily on whether a father was known at all and where he lived (Wohnort) or what his origin (Heimatort) was. I would start with the Entlebuch district court. If the state archives won't look it up for you, your cousin will probably have to do it.

Peter



entlebuch45
Supporter2023
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: Di 20. Jul 2021, 07:01
Geschlecht: Weiblich

Re: Haas von Romoos LU

Beitrag von entlebuch45 » Mo 5. Feb 2024, 07:10

Hello Peter,
Thank you so much once again for your detailed reply.
I can confirm that "the alleged natural father Hans Albert Haas is only evident from the information that Franz provided himself for naturalization in Australia".
Out of interest we have sought more information from the Archives about the theft case involving Rosa Frieda and her father, principally to see if the identity of the plaintiff (if forthcoming) sheds any light on the missing/unknown father of Franz.
Have considered your advice regarding approaching a jurisdiction to see if we can find the judgement you referred to.
Will try the Archives as I am not sure my cousin would feel confident to pursue this; although I have not approached her about it as yet.
Which leads me to ask is your obvious expertise in these matters related to your profession?
Paul



entlebuch45
Supporter2023
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: Di 20. Jul 2021, 07:01
Geschlecht: Weiblich

Re: Haas von Romoos LU

Beitrag von entlebuch45 » Sa 17. Feb 2024, 04:18

Hello Peter,
The link you provided for the Entlebuch District Court appears to refer to records ending in 1907,
while Franz Haas was not born until May 1908. My cousin is going to attempt a search as you suggested. Is she likely to find subsequent years records easily?
Paul



Peter.D
Beiträge: 1955
Registriert: Sa 27. Feb 2010, 17:53
Geschlecht: Männlich
Wohnort: Schweiz, Zürich

Re: Haas von Romoos LU

Beitrag von Peter.D » Sa 17. Feb 2024, 08:49

Hello Paul,

When I open the link, I see the minutes from 1908 onwards just below (i.e. XB 8/7). If your cousin can't find the two persons she is looking for in the alphabetical index, she should look through these next:

- the minutes of the Sursee District Court
- the records of the district court of the city of Lucerne.

I recommend that she orders all three volumes in advance.

Peter



Peter.D
Beiträge: 1955
Registriert: Sa 27. Feb 2010, 17:53
Geschlecht: Männlich
Wohnort: Schweiz, Zürich

Re: Haas von Romoos LU

Beitrag von Peter.D » So 18. Feb 2024, 09:11

Hi Paul,

As you can see from Olivier's contribution, the Entlebuch District Court had jurisdiction over both Romoos and Werthenstein at the time in question, i.e. the mother's origin and place of residence. So there is a fair chance that this court had something to judge in connection with the illegitimate birth in +/-1908.

However, if the illegitimate father was known and lived in another community of the canton, a different court could of course have had jurisdiction.

Peter



entlebuch45
Supporter2023
Beiträge: 14
Registriert: Di 20. Jul 2021, 07:01
Geschlecht: Weiblich

Re: Haas von Romoos LU

Beitrag von entlebuch45 » Di 20. Feb 2024, 08:26

Hello Peter,
Again my sincere thanks for all your information and advice.
Have passed the latest information and the links to my cousin.
We now wait to see if we can achieve a successful outcome regarding
a judgement for Rosa Frieda and Franz.

Paul



Antworten

Zurück zu „Luzern (LU)“

Wer ist online?

Mitglieder in diesem Forum: 0 Mitglieder und 0 Gäste