Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Départements : Alpes-de-Haute-Provence (04), Hautes-Alpes (05), Alpes-Maritimes (06), Bouches-du-Rhône (13), Var (83), Vaucluse (84)
Départements : Alpes-de-Haute-Provence (04), Hautes-Alpes (05), Alpes-Maritimes (06), Bouches-du-Rhône (13), Var (83), Vaucluse (84)

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judybuckley1943
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Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von judybuckley1943 » Di 29. Jun 2021, 16:02

My 5 x great grandfather was Henry Sollicoffer. He married Judith Esther Dorothea Favre (1725-1810) in London in 1753. It is clear to me that he didn't come to London in the early 1750s direct from St Gallen (although his French wife did quote St Gallen as her "parish" when she has two children in the Lying In Hospital in London) so I suspect he lived first in Marseille.

Other London Sollicoffers (there weren't many) also came from Marseille where used the French spelling with an S and not the German with a Z) one, Bartholomew (the son of Jean Conrad and Mary in Marseille who lived in London from 1708 until his death, who was a secretary to the Duke of Chandos, another, Jean Leonard who was British Consul in North Africa.

My Henry (a Mariner, although he had earlier worked for a while as a Dyer) disappeared from English records in the early months of 1758. But his wife and two children stayed in London. She married again in 1791. So far I have only been able to conjecture that Henry might have gone to sea on a Sollicoffer ship, maybe to America, and perished at sea? Or been pressed for the Navy in the Seven Years War? But now I have found reference to a will in Marseille. So perhaps he merely deserted his French wife in London, and went back to Marseilles?

Municiple Archives of Marseille, Notaire Antoine Portetassy
Testament de Henry Sollicoffre, cc.2443-2444v, 30.12.1774
Inventaire après décès de henry Sollicoffre, cc.2205-2206, 8.1.1785
also Testament de Gaspard Sollicoffre, cc.125-127, 6.1.1786
AMM, Justice. Police, FF 86, Procès verbaux de vente des chevaux et carrose de Gaspard et Nicolas Sollicoffre, 2.5.1737

I guess that access to archives is a bit restricted at the moment, but perhaps someone has already got these?



Marglats
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von Marglats » Di 29. Jun 2021, 17:26

Judy,
Peut-être une piste (maybe a lead)

https://gw.geneanet.org/massalia18eme?n ... c=&p=henry
https://gw.geneanet.org/pyl?n=sollicoffre&oc=&p=henry

SOLLICOFFRE Henri X BROCARD Antoinette Josephine 15.06.1784 Marseille St Martin
http://www.archives13.fr/ark:/40700/vta ... tion=0.000

+ SOLLICOFFRE Henri 09.01.1785 Marseille St Férreol 56 ans (years)
http://www.archives13.fr/ark:/40700/vta ... tion=0.000

Gérard



judybuckley1943
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von judybuckley1943 » Di 29. Jun 2021, 18:32

Good gracious!

Many many thanks! Possible, but almost too exciting! I think this man might fit, but I'm not sure how to make the link!!!

This Henri was born in about 1729. So he could have married in London in 1753 (aged 24) my 5xgt grandmother Judith (aged 27). It was an irregular marriage, perhaps a love match? Judith then had a girl in 1754 and a boy in 1757 (both in a charitable hospital set up for women having babies without family support). In May 1774 the son John Robert was apprenticed (father Henry Sollicoffer, deceased) but within 6 months he sailed to America on a free passage. Daughter (another Judith) married in London in 1780 (parents were not witnesses) . Wife Judith married again 1791. She married a widower called Pierre Tapolet.

Marseille Henri married again in Marseille aged about 55 in 1785. If he had deserted a wife in London, was he wanting to secure money for his mistress? I cannot translate his occupation!
Did Judith wait to marry again in London because she thought he was still alive, although she reported him dead in 1874
How did Judith have enough money to employ expensive lawyers before her second marriage? I have not managed to etablish a business for her although I suspect she may have been a Milliner, and have had money of her own.

If Henri was my 5x great grandfather, then Nicolas and Ursula were my 6xgt grandparents.

So the dates are possible, but ... this is exciting. Best wishes, Judy



Marglats
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von Marglats » Mi 30. Jun 2021, 17:44

Bonsoir Judy,
Avez-vous une copie de l'acte de mariage Henry SOLLICOFFER x Judith Esther Dorothea FAVRE à Londres en 1753?
Do you have a copy of the marriage certificate Henry SOLLICOFFER x Judith Esther Dorothea FAVRE in London in 1753?

Gérard



judybuckley1943
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von judybuckley1943 » Mi 30. Jun 2021, 19:12

Yes. Attached is their marriage. Note it was NOT in a church, but a "Fleet" marriage, in an inn near the famous Debtor's prison. Anyone could marry there if they paid a clergyman (He was probably in prison for debt himself, lost his parish, or was just making money) to marry them and records were kept. Usually because one was under age (but in this case the bride was over 21 years old), both sets of parents disapproved or because they were in a hurry or some other normal requirement could not be satisfied. Around that time marriage laws in England were changing.

I've also attached the birth and christening of their first child. There are some mistakes. Lying hospital records were meticulously kept, but mothers were rather stressed and sometimes lied! I am not sure how long Esther or Henry had been in England and their English may not have been very good? I have found Sollicoffers in London Rate books, but cannot link them because I don't know who their parents were.
Du hast keine ausreichende Berechtigung, um die Dateianhänge dieses Beitrags anzusehen.



Marglats
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von Marglats » Fr 2. Jul 2021, 14:43

Judy,
Merci pour les photos.
Certaines ne sont pas lisibles quand on les agrandit.
Ce serait mieux d’envoyer le lien qui permet d’accéder directement à l’acte en ligne.
Cordialement
Gérard

Thanks for the pictures.
Some are not legible when you enlarge them.
It would be better to send the link that allows direct access to the act online.
Regards



judybuckley1943
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von judybuckley1943 » Fr 2. Jul 2021, 16:13

Try this? The biggest I can do, but better?

https://www.the-miscellany.co.uk/1753_m ... ther_Favre

The transcription is

802 D'Sollicoffre Henry Dyre of X [Christ] Church Spitlefields Br [Bachelor] & Esther Favre Spr [Spinster] Jan: y 29th 1753

The reference is PUBLIC RECORD OFFICE RG 7/265



Marglats
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von Marglats » Sa 3. Jul 2021, 14:41

Merci Judy.
Je continue la recherche.
Bien cordialement
Gérard

Thank you Judy.
I’ll continue the search.
Sincerely



judybuckley1943
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von judybuckley1943 » Sa 3. Jul 2021, 15:26

Merci beaucoup!

S'il vous plaît dites-moi si vous avez des recherches en Angleterre pour lesquelles je peux vous aider.

Very best wishes again, Judy



Marglats
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von Marglats » Sa 3. Jul 2021, 15:37

C'est très gentil, Judy, mais je n'ai pas de recherche en Angleterre.
Mais si vous avez d'autres recherches en France, n'hésitez pas.
Bien cordialement
Gérard

That’s very kind of you, Judy, but I don’t have any research in England.
But if you have other research in France, do not hesitate.
Sincerely



Marglats
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von Marglats » Sa 17. Jul 2021, 17:48

Bonsoir Judy
En réponse à votre demande :
- Testament de Henry SOLLICOFFRE, cc.2443-2444v, 30.12.1774
- Inventaire après décès de henry SOLLICOFFRE, cc.2205-2206, 08.01.1785
- Testament de Gaspard SOLLICOFFRE, cc.125-127, 06.01.1786
- Procès-verbaux de vente des chevaux et carrosse de Gaspard et Nicolas SOLLICOFFRE, 02.05.1737 AMM, Justice. Police, FF 86

Mon ami Marie-Louise de Marseille s’est déplacée aux AD pour chercher les documents demandés.

1er envoi
Les parentés d’après le testament d’Henry SOLLICOFFRE 1784 (pas 1774)
Rien dans le testament qui fasse état d’une première épouse ou d’enfants d’un premier mariage.

Recherche à partir du testament :
Une fille Charlotte Joséphine
née de parents inconnus le 14 septembre 1773, baptisée le 16 (la marraine est Marguerite BROCARD comme la mère) Marseille Saint Ferréol vue 120/166 page droite
http://www.archives13.fr/ark:/40700/vta ... ogrp/0/120

Mariage de Charlotte Joséphine x Jean Joachim PELLENC
21 juin 1789 Marseille Saint Martin vue 149/316 page droite
http://www.archives13.fr/ark:/40700/vta ... ogrp/0/149

Marie-Louise a demandé si l’on pouvait demander les actes complets par courrier, la réponse est oui, et les précisions sont ici
http://www.archives13.fr/n/vos-recherch ... ance/n:241
Il faut indiquer les côtes précises, les noms, les dates, les lieux, le notaire
Ils vous envoient un devis. L’envoi des actes se fait après acceptation et paiement.

Marie-Louise vous signale un livre que vous connaissez peut être, qui pourrait éclairer :
Louis Malzac, « Les Zollicoffer de Saint-Gall », Provincia, t. XIV, 1934, p. 95-96.
Elle l’a trouvé dans la note 12 de cette publication sur Gallica
https://journals.openedition.org/cdlm/6370
Au § 29 sont évoqués Gaspard et Henry SOLLICOFFRE


2ème envoi
Inventaire après décès d’Henry SOLLICOFFRE
Pas de photos mais Marie-Louise a fait un résumé.

Comparaison des signatures
Marie-Louise a pensé qu’une comparaison des signatures pourrait être un indice.
Elle a isolé 2 signatures d’Henry SOLLICOFFRE (mariage et testament) qui pourraient être comparées à celles d’Henry l’Anglais si vous avez des actes anglais
Elle a aussi isolé les signatures de Gaspard et de l’épouse en 1785 sur l’inventaire après décès.

3ème envoi
Pas trouvé de testament de Gaspard SOLLICOFFRE (peut-être chez un autre notaire) mais Marie-Louise a trouvé un Protêt * concernant Gaspard daté du 16 janvier 1786.
* Protêt : Acte authentique dressé par un huissier à la demande du porteur d'un effet de commerce, d'une lettre de change ou d'un chèque pour constater, après sommation, soit le non-paiement à l'échéance de l'effet (protêt faute de paiement), soit le refus d'acceptation d'une traite (protêt faute d'acceptation)

4ème envoi
Vente de chevaux et carrosse La côte FF 86 était bonne mais c’est 1735, pas 1737

Hors sujet : Marie-Louise a trouvé un Rodolphe SOLLICOFFRE, même période à Marseille (je ne sais si ça vous est utile)

Pourriez-vous me donner votre adresse mail afin que je vous envoie les documents en privé ?
Bien cordialement
Gérard



judybuckley1943
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von judybuckley1943 » Sa 17. Jul 2021, 18:55

Dear Gérard,

Utiliser google translate parce que mon français était à l'école - 1954-60

Un grand merci en effet pour votre aimable aide, et à Marie-Louise ! Veuillez ne pas payer pour m'envoyer quoi que ce soit par la poste, car je suis très heureux d'utiliser des copies numériques qui peuvent être envoyées en pièce jointe à un e-mail.

J'ai téléchargé la signature de mon Henry Sollicoffer sur mon site Web maintenant en haut de la page. Désolé, j'aurais dû le faire avant !

https://www.the-miscellany.co.uk/1753_m ... ther_Favre

J'ai peur que la signature ne corresponde pas à celles de Marseille, ce serait trop beau pour être vrai.

Bien cordialement Judy



Marglats
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von Marglats » So 18. Jul 2021, 16:43

Dear Judy
My English in school dates from 1961-1969 but I am not good at languages.
Thank you for the signature. I’ll look into it.

In response to your request:
- Testament de Henry SOLLICOFFRE, cc.2443-2444v, 30.12.1774
- Inventaire après décès de henry SOLLICOFFRE, cc.2205-2206, 08.01.1785
- Testament de Gaspard SOLLICOFFRE, cc.125-127, 06.01.1786
- Procès-verbaux de vente des chevaux et carrosse de Gaspard et Nicolas SOLLICOFFRE, 02.05.1737 AMM, Justice. Police, FF 86

My friend Marie-Louise from Marseille went to the AD to look for the documents requested.

1st shipment
Relatives according to the will of Henry SOLLICOFFRE 1784 (not 1774)
Nothing in the will that mentions a first wife or children of a first marriage.

Search from the will:
A girl Charlotte Josephine
born to unknown parents on September 14, 1773, baptized on the 16th (the godmother is Marguerite BROCARD as the mother)
Marseille Saint Ferréol vue 120/166 page droite
http://www.archives13.fr/ark:/40700/vta ... ogrp/0/120

Mariage de Charlotte Joséphine x Jean Joachim PELLENC
21 juin 1789 Marseille Saint Martin vue 149/316 page droite
http://www.archives13.fr/ark:/40700/vta ... ogrp/0/149

In case you wish to acquire certain acts yourself, AD can send them to you by mail. It’s a paid service.
The details are here : http://www.archives13.fr/n/vos-recherch ... ance/n:241

Marie-Louise points out a book that you may be familiar with, which could shed light on:
Louis Malzac, « Les Zollicoffer de Saint-Gall », Provincia, t. XIV, 1934, p. 95-96.
Elle l’a trouvé dans la note 12 de cette publication sur Gallica
https://journals.openedition.org/cdlm/6370
Au § 29 sont évoqués Gaspard et Henry SOLLICOFFRE


2nd shipment
Inventory after death of Henry SOLLICOFFRE
No photos, but Marie-Louise did a summary.

Comparison of signatures
Marie-Louise thought that a comparison of signatures might be a clue.
She isolated 2 signatures of Henry SOLLICOFFRE (marriage and will) that could be compared to those of Henry the Englishman if you have English deeds
She also isolated the signatures of Gaspard and the wife in 1785 on the inventory after death.

3rd shipment
Not found a will of Gaspard SOLLICOFFRE (perhaps at another notary) but Marie-Louise found a Protêt * concerning Gaspard dated January 16, 1786.


* Protest: an authentic document drawn up by a bailiff at the request of the bearer of a bill of exchange, a bill of exchange or a cheque to establish, after summons, either the non-payment at the expiry of the item (protest for lack of payment), or the refusal to accept a draft (protest due to lack of acceptance)

4th shipment
Sale of horses and coach The coast FF 86 was good but it is 1735, not 1737

Off topic: Marie-Louise found a Rodolphe SOLLICOFFRE, same period in Marseille (I do not know if it is useful to you)

I translated it all.
I’m sending you the documents in private e-mail.
Bien cordialement
Gérard



judybuckley1943
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von judybuckley1943 » So 18. Jul 2021, 17:36

Dear Gerard,

A quick, interim, reply to thank you again for such a lot of work!

I am just comparing the Marseille signatures with my London one. I fear the Marseille ones are "ffre" instead of "ffer." But that might just be because he was in different countries when he signed
Also the way he forms his H and other letters is different.

But perhaps a man might change his signature after 31 years? What do you think?

I will read all the other papers carefully. Please thank Marie-Louise again for me. If I may contact her direct please give her my direct email.

I will let you know how I get on a a few days.

Best wishes, Judy



Marglats
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von Marglats » Di 20. Jul 2021, 15:37

Dear Judy,
J’ai étudié les signatures et je pense qu’il s’agit de deux personnes différentes.
I’ve looked at the signatures, and I think they’re two different people.
Marie Louise pense comme moi.
Marie Louise thinks like me.
C’est vrai qu’après tant d’années, les signatures peuvent changer surtout si Henry ne voulait pas qu’on connaisse son mariage à Londres.
It’s true that after so many years, signatures can change especially if Henry doesn’t want us to know about his marriage in London.

J’ai relu vos messages notamment ce passage :
I have reread your messages including this passage:
« Judith then had a girl in 1754 and a boy in 1757 (both in a charitable hospital set up for women having babies without family support). In May 1774 the son John Robert was apprenticed (father Henry Sollicoffer, deceased) »
La fille née en 1754 et le fils né en 1757 sont les enfants d’Henri.
The daughter born in 1754 and the son born in 1757 are the children of Henri.
Le fils, John Robert est apprenti en 1774 et son père est décédé. (Comment le savez-vous ?)
The son, John Robert, was an apprentice in 1774 and his father died. (How do you know?)
Henry de Marseille s’est marié en 1784 et est décédé en 1785 (celui de Londres étant décédé avant mai 1774).
Henry of Marseille married in 1784 and died in 1785
Henry of London having died before May 1774.

Si vous avez la preuve que le père de John Robert est décédé avant mai 1774, alors Henry de Marseille est une autre personne.
If you have proof that John Robert’s father died before May 1774, then Henry of Marseilles is another person.


J’ai transmis votre mail à Marie Louise.
I sent your e-mail to Marie Louise.

Bien cordialement
Gérard



judybuckley1943
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Re: Sollicoffre family in Marseille c.1700-1790

Beitrag von judybuckley1943 » Di 20. Jul 2021, 16:50

Dear Gerard,

Yes I agree with both of you. The signatures don't prove any link, but I see how important they are on French records (not so much on ours) and it was definitely worth trying to match them. But until someone in Marseilles can prove that Henry who died there in 1785 never travelled to London, they don't disprove either?

Yes, Judith Esther gave birth to Judith Dorothy Sollicoffre in 1754 and John Robert Sollicoffre in 1758. She had both her children in a Charity hospital, which proves that she didn't have a settled home at least during that period of four years, or any female helpers for her deliveries. I know her own mother was still alive until 1778, but not available to help! The Fleet wedding, giving NO parish for the bride, looks as if her family may have disapproved of her husband.

Or she was an exceptionally independent woman! I wonder how she acquired enough money later to instruct lawyers at the time of her second marriage!

I have tried for about 20 years to find some death record for Henry, and found nothing. So NO proof that he died before 1774. He could easily have just vanished.
Judith Esther BELIEVED Henry to be dead when John Robert was apprenticed in June 1774. But she may have lied. I've put the apprenticeship record on my website now.

I know that John Robert sailed for America aged 16 in October 1774 as an indented servant (passage paid by government) , but not what happened to him there. Most indented servants had difficulties getting work, starved, and died of some disease. The fact that he didn't spend long as an apprentice in London is significant. There were harsh penalties for apprentices who absconded. I cannot discover more about him, but my 3 x great grandfather, his nephew, born in 1783 was named after him.

Judith Dorothy married Robert Overton in 1780. John Robert Overton was their only child to survive to adulthood. His grandmother left him "£20 and interest to be paid at age 21" When she died he was 27 and had already been married for 2 years. They lived near each other in East London.

I am looking at all Sollicoffres in London in the 18th Century. The Royal servant (Joachim) the British consul (Jean Leonard) and Bartholomew (uncle of the Consul) who did come to London from Marseilles. None of them link to mine, but would you like me to share the documents I find?

I'll keep in touch, Best wishes , Judy



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