Hanser / Hantzer in Saint-Brais JU

[Debra Palmer]

There are two baptismal records in the parish registers of Saint-Brais for Marie Josephe Hantzer. One record is in 1783 and the other is in 1784, which is already attached on the topic Petit à Saint-Brais JU. These two records are from different parts of the register. See attachment.

All copies are from FamilySearch.

[Debra Palmer]

There is a baptismal record in 1790 and two marriage records (1814 and 1848) in the Saint-Brais parish registers for a Petrus Josephus Hanzer, who is possibly a sibling of Marie Josephe Hantzer. See attachments.

[Debra Palmer]

Angelique Hautzer is another possible sibling of Marie Josephe and Petrus Josephus. The birth record in 1799 is in the civil register of Saint-Brais.

[Debra Palmer]

There are two records in Saint-Brais parish registers for a Franciscus Hanser and Anna Marie Farré in 1782. I think one is the announcement and the other is the marriage record. This couple could possibly be the same as the parents listed in the baptismal records of Marie Josephe, Petrus Josephus, and Angelique (above). A marriage year of 1782 would fit with the birth of Marie Josephe in 1783 or 1784. See attachments.

[Debra Palmer]

The death records in 1811, recorded in both the parish register and the civil register in Saint-Brais for a Francois Hantzser, could possibly be the Franciscus Hanser, who married Anna Marie Farré in 1782. See attachments.

[Peter.D]

Thank you very much, Debra. If I have read this correctly, the widower François Hanser came from Alle JU to Saint-Brais JU in 1783 to marry Anne Marie Farez, living in the small hamlet of Césai. He was previously married to Marie Boéchat, who may have been from Miécourt JU.

However, Hanser was apparently not a patronymic from that area. On FamilySearch, I found a baptism record for Hanser in 1775 that is supposedly connected to the Jura. However, the entry is not publicly accessible.

Small correction: the civil entry and the church entry for 1811 have been interchanged. The civil entry is always in French.

Peter

[Wolf]

Small correction: the civil entry and the church entry for 1811 have been interchanged. The civil entry is always in French.

Has been fixed.

[Debra Palmer]

... If I have read this correctly, the widower François Hanser came from Alle JU to Saint-Brais JU in 1783 to marry Anne Marie Farez, living in the small hamlet of Césai. He was previously married to Marie Boéchat, who may have been from Miécourt JU.

However, Hanser was apparently not a patronymic from that area. On FamilySearch, I found a baptism record for Hanser in 1775 that is supposedly connected to the Jura. However, the entry is not publicly accessible.

Here's the baptism record for Hanser in 1775 in Cressier, Ct. Neuchâtel https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/ ... oha:146997. See attachment.

Copy from FamilySearch.

[boris5783]

Hello Debra

I have seen your attachment (baptismal certificate from 1775 in Cressier).
I am almost certain that Marie Joseph Hantzer was indeed born and baptized in Saint-Brais in 1783/84.

Thank you for your research. Do you often go to the Family Search center for your ancestor research ?


Best Regards

Damien

[Peter.D]

I am almost certain that Marie Joseph Hantzer was indeed born and baptized in Saint-Brais in 1783/84.

I fully agree, but why is his baptism recorded both on August 1, 1783, and then again on January 3, 1784? And where did his father, François Hanser, come from before he lived as a widower in Alle JU and then remarried in Saint-Brais JU in 1782? According to his death record from 1811, he must have been born around 1741.

Here's the baptism record for Hanser in 1775 in Cressier, Ct. Neuchâtel https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/ ... oha:146997. See attachment.

The origin of Jean Georges Hanser, on the other hand, is clear: he was baptized Protestant in Gertwiller F-67 in 1746 and converted to Catholicism when he married Anastasia Kolly from Marly FR in 1775 in Laufen (then in the Prince-Bishopric of Basel like Saint-Brais). A few days later, the son of this travelling couple was born in Boudry NE and baptized on February 5, 1775, in Cressier NE (one of the two Catholic parishes in the Principality of Neuchâtel). According to the family register, there was only one Hanser family in Gertwiller at that time, and no son named François. The Christian name François also suggests a Catholic background.
The origin of Francois Hanser-Farez therefore remains open.

Peter

[Wolf]

Aus (zumindest für mich) nicht nachvollziehbaren Gründen, funktioniert der Aufruf des Taufregisters Gertwiller nicht, wenn der Link aus dem Forum heraus direkt aufgerufen wird. Wenn der identische Link unabhängig vom Forum in die Adresszeile eingegeben (bzw. kopiert) wird, klappt es . Die hier beschriebene Prozedur ist eine Möglichkeit:

Code: Alles auswählen

https://archives67.alsace.eu/ark:/78665/1914287/dao/0/165

>> ALLES AUSWÄHLEN anklicken, kopieren und in einem neuen Tab in die Adresszeile eingeben.

[Peter.D]

Hallo Wolf

Alle drei Varianten - Permalink von AD67, verkürzte TinyURL sowie deine URL von heute früh - funktionieren bei mir einwandfrei, wenn ich die Adressen direkt im Browser eingebe (Firefox und Chrome getestet). Es handelt sich somit nicht um ein Browser-Problem. Hingegen führen alle drei Variante auf eine leere Seite von AD67 3 E 154/10, wenn ich die Adressen aus dem GenealForum anwähle.

Das hatte ich bisher noch nie, deutet aber eher auf eine Unverträglichkeit zwischen GenealForum und dem System von AD67 hin. Bei anderen französischen Departements-Archiven hatte ich dies auch noch nie festgestellt. Ob die im 67 etwas gegen das Forum haben ...

TinyURL verwende ich dann, wenn mir die Adressen zu lang scheinen, aber z.B. für Publikationen oder Ausdrucke ganz sichtbar sein sollen.

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

I am almost certain that Marie Joseph Hantzer was indeed born and baptized in Saint-Brais in 1783/84.

I fully agree, but why is his baptism recorded both on August 1, 1783, and then again on January 3, 1784?

In the register of baptisms 1767-1785 in Saint-Brais (which contains the baptism recorded on August 1, 1783), the scribe wrote a little bit of information at the top of the beginning page number 83 (can't read). Perhaps, this might help to answer the question of why the baptism is recorded twice. The other register of baptisms 1737-1793 (which contains the baptism recorded on January 3, 1784) has some damage at the top of the beginning page number 1, therefore, the information is gone except for three letters of the word Ann_. See attachments.

[Peter.D]

In the register of baptisms 1767-1785 in Saint-Brais (which contains the baptism recorded on August 1, 1783), the scribe wrote a little bit of information at the top of the beginning page number 83 (can't read). Perhaps, this might help to answer the question of why the baptism is recorded twice.

Unfortunately not.
Claude Brossard was vicar in Saint-Brais for a long time and only became parish priest there in 1768. The older register from 1737 onwards was kept by his predecessor, Jean Pierre Simonin. Did another vicar continue the old register? Was the child perhaps even baptized twice, first by the vicar and later by the parish priest? Strange, in any case.

Peter

[Wolf]

...Was the child perhaps even baptized twice, first by the vicar and later by the parish priest? ...

I would exclude that possibility: baptising a child twice was strictly against the rules. If you look at the baptismal entry of Karl August Seelentag he was baptised "sub conditione" (that this baptism would only be valid in case there was actually no previous baptism) - in the situation that the child was a foundling, where it was impossible to know about a potential previous baptism. I cannot imagine that the priest baptised a child without first consulting the baptismal register of his own parish ... and if he missed that, "sub conditione" should have been added.

[Debra Palmer]

... Claude Brossard was vicar in Saint-Brais for a long time and only became parish priest there in 1768. The older register from 1737 onwards was kept by his predecessor, Jean Pierre Simonin. Did another vicar continue the old register? Was the child perhaps even baptized twice, first by the vicar and later by the parish priest? Strange, in any case.

Thank you, Peter for the helpful background information about the parish priest and the vicar, that are the ones responsible for the two baptismal registers.

I would exclude that possibility: baptising a child twice was strictly against the rules. If you look at the baptismal entry of Karl August Seelentag he was baptised "sub conditione" (that this baptism would only be valid in case there was actually no previous baptism) - in the situation that the child was a foundling, where it was impossible to know about a potential previous baptism. I cannot imagine that the priest baptised a child without first consulting the baptismal register of his own parish ... and if he missed that, "sub conditione" should have been added.

Thank you, Wolf for pointing out that, "... baptising a child twice was strictly against the rules. ...", and for sharing the story of Karl August Seelentag, who was baptized "sub conditione." My understanding from this example is that in only very unusual circumstances would a child's baptismal record be entered twice.
Karl's story is interesting, particularly the part that tells the reason he was given a distinctive family name.

I took another look at both of the baptismal records and other records on the same pages. I noticed there is a child named Maria Anna Piquerez, the daughter of Joanni Jacobi (not sure if I read the family name correctly), who is also listed in the older register that began in 1737 and the one that began in 1767. Therefore, Maria Josepha Hantzer is not the only child listed in both registers. Note that the two entries for Maria Anna Piquerez are both in the year 1783 (not sure of the day and month). See attachments.

Is there a possible conclusion we can draw from this?

[Peter.D]

Is there a possible conclusion we can draw from this?

I found the probable explanation in an article by François Noirjean in the journal Revue de l'état civil, 1984, pages 354ff, L'état Civil dans la République et Canton du Jura, which I scanned a few years ago. I am attaching the two relevant pages.

Jura - l'état civil - 1984 Extract.pdf

After France occupied the prince-bishopric in 1792, many priests fled because they did not want to take the oath to the French constitution, which was mandatory until 1801. This included the successor to Pastor Brossard, Jean Baptiste Paumier, who returned in 1794 but went into hiding until the concordat between the Pope and Napoleon in 1801. As Noirjean describes, many church records were falsified during the French period, in particular to prevent young men from being drafted into the army but also to prevent the levying of inheritance taxes. One church register from Saint-Brais was even completely rewritten, presumably by Father Paumier: Saint-Brais vol. 2 Baptémes (1737-1793), 5 Baptémes (1765-1793) or 7 Baptémes (1767-1785, no microfilm!) ?

Peter

[Debra Palmer]

I read

... As Noirjean describes, ... One church register from Saint-Brais was even completely rewritten, presumably by Father Paumier: Saint-Brais vol. 2 Baptémes (1737-1793), 5 Baptémes (1765-1793) or 7 Baptémes (1767-1785, no microfilm!) ?

If I understand this correctly, does it mean that one of the three volumes (2, 5, or 7) was completely rewritten? I'm not sure what "no microfilm!" means, as related to vol. 7?

Thank you very much, Peter for finding the probable explanation in an article by François Noirjean. Also, thank you, for the two pages in the PDF.

As for the two dates of August 1, 1783 and January 3, 1784 in the registers, do you have an opinion of which one might be Marie Josephe Hantzer's correct baptismal date?

[Peter.D]

If I understand this correctly, does it mean that one of the three volumes (2, 5, or 7) was completely rewritten? I'm not sure what "no microfilm!" means, as related to vol. 7?

Yes, according to Noirjean, one church register was completely rewritten during the French period, using the same handwriting and ink throughout. However, he does not say which one. The State Archives catalog lists three baptismal registers from the 18th century, all of which overlap in time (volumes 2, 5, and 7). Volume 7 1767-1785 is listed in the catalog as ‘non microfilmé’. However, the FamilySearch directory apparently does show a specific microfilm for 1767-1785, but only two periods are listed for baptisms, not three.

As for the two dates of August 1, 1783 and January 3, 1784 in the registers, do you have an opinion of which one might be Marie Josephe Hantzer's correct baptismal date?

It's difficult to say. You would have to compare all three volumes in detail. I have no idea if anyone has ever done that.
When it was about preventing conscription into the military, the later date would be falsified (to make them too young for serving) — but depending on the time period and age limits for the service, it could be the other way around (to make them older).
Noirjean mentions a case where the baptism date was falsified to such an extent that the young man's date of birth was two years after his mother's death!

Peter